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Old 22nd May 2012, 01:49   #16
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rash View Post
Interestingly, this is exactly why I believe makes us a less mature market
Why do you think we are not mature enough?
Just look at the sales numbers of Ktm vs others.ppl are willing to put down money on the right product .not only ktm look at other super bikes, they are also selling in huge numbers.
they released 125 ,bcos they don't need license if i am correct.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 02:05   #17
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by black12rr View Post
Why do you think we are not mature enough?
I think you mis-understand me. I am not talking about the maturity of people. I am sure you will agree that the Indian motorcycle market is still devoid of easily available high horsepower vehicles as compared to europe or NA.

For us, horsepower is still a big deal as we are starved for it, so we will not accept a 350cc with just 24 hp. And hence its unlikely that Bajaj will introduce 350cc with just 24hp.

The european market looks at the KTM 350 free ride from a very different point of view, and hence KTM could go ahead and introduce a 350 there which make just 24 hp.

Essentially, I am in agreement with you that a modern 350cc with just 24hp will not be accepted by the Indian market.

I hope that clarifies.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 11:27   #18
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rash View Post
I think you mis-understand me. I am not talking about the maturity of people. I am sure you will agree that the Indian motorcycle market is still devoid of easily available high horsepower vehicles as compared to europe or NA.

For us, horsepower is still a big deal as we are starved for it, so we will not accept a 350cc with just 24 hp. And hence its unlikely that Bajaj will introduce 350cc with just 24hp.

The european market looks at the KTM 350 free ride from a very different point of view, and hence KTM could go ahead and introduce a 350 there which make just 24 hp.

Essentially, I am in agreement with you that a modern 350cc with just 24hp will not be accepted by the Indian market.

I hope that clarifies.
I don't understand what are you trying to say here. You mean to say that there are so many high power machines available in Europe that they don't care about power ? I don't believe that. Just try to sell 8bhp splendour there and see the response.

There no way a 24bhp machine will be better than 45bhp one, no matter how much low end torque 24bhp machine has. Also power delivery depends upon bike category, you can't expect a sports bike to have low end power.

Even we can see KTM 350 in different light, we do buy RE 350, don't we ?
Not necessarily everyone is looking for power, P220 and ZMA are two bikes have same engine capacity but 3-4bhp difference in power. According to you in India people will only buy P220 ? but that is not the case.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 11:46   #19
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

Leaving aside the labelling of the Indian motorcycle buyer as "mature" or not,
What Rash is trying to say (i think) is that there is a market for the KTM 350 FreeRide in Europe with the earlier mentioned specs and hence they make it. It is a purpose-built motorcycle and peak power output may not be very crucial to its purpose.

We all agree that there won't be a market for it in India (whether due to immaturity or lack of buyers interested in pure off-roaders is debatable), and hence it won't be brought here.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 12:54   #20
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

A 24 BHP bike being better or not than a 45bhp bike is based on various parameters like usage, personal riding style and preferences.

If the bike has huge amount of torque it will most definitely be better than a 45 bhp bike. We won't be revving the rockers off the bike to extract that much power. This comes into play in the mountains with decent slopes. Which bike would you take to Leh. Definitely the 24bhp one because the other one will just be gasping for breath. I have seen people struggling on fast and powerful bikes on the highway and RE's just cruising past them.
Torque is severely under-rated in india. We just look at BHP figures. It is the torque which will be the most used feature of the engine.
Lets look at cars for instance.Especially the deisel engines. Petrol engines make far more HP than deisel but its the diesel engines which breeze past on slopes and have sufficient torque to overtake without changing gears or revving high.
Similarly high torque engines have thier own capability and you cannot just dismiss them saying they cannot be better.

An R1200GS with lesser HP is definitely better than a busa when climbing slopes. It does not need the clutch to be slipped. Yes I have been there and done both of the things. Lets forget about bad roads. This is perfectly smooth and extreme slope. Even the RE does better than the busa/superbike which just stalls unless the clutch is slipped.

Last edited by Mpower : 23rd May 2012 at 00:32. Reason: derogatory language
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Old 22nd May 2012, 13:08   #21
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rash View Post
Its not, How, it's why.

Most european markets are much more mature than the Indian market and are not horsepower starved and top speed crazy!
The bit in bold is the real reason KTM know very well. If an indian motorcycle enthusiast wants a 350cc bike which makes 2x.y bhp, there is always the entire 350cc range from Royal Enfeild. Why would this person spend 2/2.3/2.5/3 lac on a KTM which the local mechanics don't even know (if something happens to go wrong).

There is nothing 'topspeed crazy' about Indians. Europeans don't expect top speeds from a 350cc dirt bike because they have other bikes for that. We are slowly getting the same stuff, but not at a price which is in any way comparable. Apart from the 2 Ninjas (one of which has not been available for like a year), everything else is outrageously priced in comparison to its price in the EU.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 13:17   #22
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rash View Post
The european market looks at the KTM 350 free ride from a very different point of view, and hence KTM could go ahead and introduce a 350 there which make just 24 hp.
The Free ride is an off road machine, therefore requires more torque lower down rather than peak power at higher revs.

It has nothing to do with maturity levels, deer population, weather conditions or any other totally unrelated reason!!

We have been lapping up 18bhp 350cc Royal Enfields for well over 5 decades and they are in far more demand now than ever before. If Indians were immature and only bhp hungry then RE would have shut shop long ago. We love them because they are built for a purpose and the power developed is perfect for the same.

KTM's supermoto the 450 smr, a road bike and has a engine which churns out nerly 55hp. Its a roadbike so peak power is what the engine aims for.

Its not just India but auto enthusiasts all over the world, wether its UK, Austria or Timbutu, all of them use power output as a measure. This is why a multi million dollar tuning industry exists in the world.

If everyone in the West was so mature, all of us should be driving 125cc bikes that would simply serve the purpose!!

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Last edited by n_aditya : 22nd May 2012 at 15:55.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 18:01   #23
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
There no way a 24bhp machine will be better than 45bhp one, no matter how much low end torque 24bhp machine has. Also power delivery depends upon bike category, you can't expect a sports bike to have low end power.
I strongly disagree with this. A 24 BHP engine that provides a flat and strong torque curve throughout the rev range will be much more usable and hence enjoyable (I will justify this later) on the streets than the same engine being retuned to 45 bhp which is ONLY delivered at 10k RPM, while at 8k RPM it produces 10 bhp and has non existent torque anywhere in the rev range.

How often does one honestly ride their bike at the peak BHP rpm? Unless one is racing, the most commonly used rpm range would be the upper-low and mids. Setting up a strong torque\power combination in this area makes for a very enjoyable ride. Case in point, the Classic 500 minus its incompetent fuel injection. Too bad the rest of the bike is rubbish.

The fact that manufacturers only give out bhp and torque figures and not proper dyno charts when promoting their products causes me to believe that they are catering to consumers who just want a bike with the highest 'number', be it bhp, cc, torque, mileage, etc. And this in turn gets them to retune their engines towards maximizing this number at the cost of not making a more enjoyable vehicle as it doesn't impress with the numbers.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 18:31   #24
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by GreaseMonk View Post
I strongly disagree with this. A 24 BHP engine that provides a flat and strong torque curve throughout the rev range will be much more usable and hence enjoyable (I will justify this later) on the streets than the same engine being retuned to 45 bhp which is ONLY delivered at 10k RPM, while at 8k RPM it produces 10 bhp and has non existent torque anywhere in the rev range.

How often does one honestly ride their bike at the peak BHP rpm? Unless one is racing, the most commonly used rpm range would be the upper-low and mids. Setting up a strong torque\power combination in this area makes for a very enjoyable ride. Case in point, the Classic 500 minus its incompetent fuel injection. Too bad the rest of the bike is rubbish.

The fact that manufacturers only give out bhp and torque figures and not proper dyno charts when promoting their products causes me to believe that they are catering to consumers who just want a bike with the highest 'number', be it bhp, cc, torque, mileage, etc. And this in turn gets them to retune their engines towards maximizing this number at the cost of not making a more enjoyable vehicle as it doesn't impress with the numbers.
Hey man, you got me wrong. What i meant there if same capacity engine has 24bhp and 45bhp of power. I am sure even the initial torque will be more than 24bhp one.

I know C500 is a great machine, but can you fix the same engine in any sports bike like Ninja 250, R15 or CBR 250 and say the same thing. vice versa you can't put any of these bikes engines into C500 and ride it.

So my whole point was that KTM is not that stupid to launch a off roader with a sports bike engine because of our fascination(i don't think its true) of power.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 20:27   #25
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by NikhilB View Post
Leaving aside the labelling of the Indian motorcycle buyer as "mature" or not,
What Rash is trying to say (i think) is that there is a market for the KTM 350 FreeRide in Europe with the earlier mentioned specs and hence they make it. It is a purpose-built motorcycle and peak power output may not be very crucial to its purpose.

We all agree that there won't be a market for it in India (whether due to immaturity or lack of buyers interested in pure off-roaders is debatable), and hence it won't be brought here.
Quote:
If everyone in the West was so mature, all of us should be driving 125cc bikes that would simply serve the purpose!!
Again, I am not talking about individuals, I am talking about the Market as a whole. But I rest my point.
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Old 22nd May 2012, 21:06   #26
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
Hey man, you got me wrong. What i meant there if same capacity engine has 24bhp and 45bhp of power. I am sure even the initial torque will be more than 24bhp one.
I am trying to find dyno curves for both the bikes, haven't found them yet, if you do, Please post up!

But your assumption might not be right assuming the valve train is fixed and there is no forced induction.

The valve lift profile will be optimized to generate more torque at lower rpm's in the Freeride. Essentially it will have lesser valve over lap and hence lower charge loss at lower rpms compared to the EXC-F that makes 45 hp. Add to this intake runner length, exhaust and fueling/ignition will all be optimized for low end torque.

Now coming to the EXC-F! Now the way to make more power is you either stuff more charge or stuff charge more number of times in a given time (rpms).
So to produce more power the exc-f will have a valve lift profile with higher over lap ( meaning both exhaust and intake valve remain open together for a longer time in a cycle). This causes charges loss at lower RPMS's and hence it will probably produce lesser torque than the free ride at lower rpms. But the valve overlap will allow the engine to be more efficient higher up the RPM range.

Lets do a simple example using a basic formula

T = (5252 x HP)/rpm

therefore

HP = (T x rpm )/5252

Lets assume they both(Free ride 350 vs EXC-F 350) produce 21 ft-lb of Torque but at 6000 and 11000 rpm respectively due to their optimized valve train geometry.

plug it above

FR 350

HP = 21 x 6000 / 5252 = 23.99 HP

EXC-F 350

HP = 21 x 11000 / 5252 = 43.98 HP

Safe to assume that the EXC-F will NOT be producing same torque at 6000 as it does at 11000 with fixed geometry.

I will try to see if we can find accurate dyno curves to back this mumbo jumbo
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Old 23rd May 2012, 00:20   #27
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

Bottom line, we Indians ARE starved for good powerful performance machines at a budget most serious bikers can afford.

This is not to say that those who buy the N250 and N650 are posers, but that there is a huge population of bikers which is untapped. Who would love to get their hands on such performance. But cannot (and often will not) spend that kind of cash on the bike.

It is a useless exercise doing a mathematical currency conversion and passing judgment of whether a bike is priced right or not. Any marketing MBA will tell you that pricing and affordability are not totally objective but very subjective when it comes to the buyer's perceptions about what he feels he is getting for the price demanded versus what he feels he should be getting and/or what he feels he should be paying.

It is my strong opinion that India is more than ready for a good 40+ bhp bike, but that paradigm can no way be stretched beyond the 2 Lac price point towards even the nearest 50 thousand. Hence 2 to 2.25 Lacs and there will be volumes. Not just a celebrity flagship seling a few thousand pieces per year and necessisating a huge service and parts backup infrastructure that is disproportional to the value generated.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 14:27   #28
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by navpreet318 View Post
Torque is severely under-rated in india. We just look at BHP figures. It is the torque which will be the most used feature of the engine.

An R1200GS with lesser HP is definitely better than a busa when climbing slopes. It does not need the clutch to be slipped. Yes I have been there and done both of the things. Lets forget about bad roads. This is perfectly smooth and extreme slope. Even the RE does better than the busa/superbike which just stalls unless the clutch is slipped.
Very well said navpreet, I have come across so many sales guys across dealerships ranging from econo-class Maruti (Raj, Pune and Blr) and Ford (Blr) to expensive Toyota (Pune), Honda (Raj), BMW ones (Raj, Blr) who doesnt know the respective torque numbers but mention the bhp with no slip. When asked for torque, the guy either starts to turn the brochure or else plainly says 'best in class hai sir'.
Today only I had TD of the Duke and same situation. The guy argued that its better than the Ninja. He said 'Sir iska 25 hai and uska 22 hai'...

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Old 23rd May 2012, 14:43   #29
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by Rash View Post
Lets do a simple example using a basic formula

T = (5252 x HP)/rpm

therefore

HP = (T x rpm )/5252

Lets assume they both(Free ride 350 vs EXC-F 350) produce 21 ft-lb of Torque but at 6000 and 11000 rpm respectively due to their optimized valve train geometry.

Lets assume

plug it above

FR 350

HP = 21 x 6000 / 5252 = 23.99 HP

EXC-F 350

HP = 21 x 11000 / 5252 = 43.98 HP

Safe to assume that the EXC-F will NOT be producing same torque at 6000 as it does at 11000 with fixed geometry.

I will try to see if we can find accurate dyno curves to back this mumbo jumbo
The calculation is wrong as the torque will be also more in the 45bhp motor and just assuming 11,000 is not right as its not a sports bike motor to develop power at such a high RPM range. I am not able to find torque figure for these two anywhere, i am amazed that why KTM site doesnot have these figures

As per this website power and torque for EXC-F 350 is 47hp and 37.5Nm(27.65ft-lb)

http://www.motoonline.com.au/2011/07...-stroke-range/

HP = 27.6 x 9000 / 5252 = ~47HP

I don't think torque for EXC-F 350 can be calculated through above formula unless we have a power/torque graph.

PS: i am not very good with nos so pls check yourself :P

Last edited by Rahulkool : 23rd May 2012 at 14:56.
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Old 23rd May 2012, 15:15   #30
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Default Re: Bajaj Plans for bigger 350/690CC bikes with KTM

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Originally Posted by AltoHoncho View Post
.................
Today only I had TD of the Duke and same situation. The guy argued that its better than the Ninja. He said 'Sir iska 25 hai and uska 22 hai'...
Talking about the duke. Its a great street bike but take it to the hills and try to do one of the many slopes of Clouds End road or the Landour road and it starts gasping and requires severe clutch slipping. Again signifying the need of torque. Thats a slope where the RE350 climbs up without any problem and RE500 just breezes past.
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