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Old 2nd March 2012, 23:51   #16
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

More than marketing, etc., etc., gearless motorcycles are not around due to the very architectural design of a motorcycle.

Automatic transmission can only be achieved by either torque converter (too bulky for motorcycles), Dual clutch automated manual (very expensive like VFR, but getting cheaper slowly), or variomatic (only cheap and plausible type).

Variomatics work on CVT principle, with pulleys, which work great if the final drive is to the wheels, instead of a sprocket (like in scooters). DN-01 does it via shaft drive, I think. You have to have a large displacement motor with enough grunt in the CVT to drive a shaft or chain to work as desired in a motorcycle architecture. So not "cost-effective".

From the looks of things, DSG looks to be the only foreseeable gearless motorcycle technology that could trickle down to mass production, but I doubt into the commuter class anytime soon.

I could be wrong, just my 2 paisa.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 3rd March 2012, 00:42   #17
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Your rant is bang on. My ideal bike will be a auto-transmission cruiser with a high capacity engine. It will be just out of this world to consistently glide on the road. Hope to ride this dream bike someday.
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Old 3rd March 2012, 02:38   #18
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
More than marketing, etc., etc...
Cheers

Ride Safe.
Yours, my friend, is the most sensible explanation.
By the time DSG becomes cheap enough, I think we will all go electric. Then there is no need for variable ratios

Last edited by suhaas307 : 3rd March 2012 at 11:53. Reason: edited quoted post
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Old 3rd March 2012, 10:03   #19
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

TVS wil be introducing engines with auto transmission next year. It is expected that these revelutionary engine transmission controlled by a ECM will be 20% more fuel efficient than the current vehicles. This will be both motor cycles and scooters
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Old 3rd March 2012, 13:48   #20
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Why AT (gear less) bikes din't work:

- Low Mileage..which is the biggest USP for manufacturers in India
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Old 3rd March 2012, 14:10   #21
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

The biggest USP of geared bikes in Fuel efficiency ( kitna detai hai ?)

Auto boxes are expensive compared to geared ones

Auto boxes ( 4 strokers esp - not comparing with say a Kinectic Honda ) dont give as good pickup as the geared ones.

Bikes esp the 100-125 cc category are hot selling products in rural semi urban areas, and they are used ( mostly abused ) in trying conditions and very often overloaded, auto boxes do not fit the bill here IMO
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Old 3rd March 2012, 15:13   #22
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
The biggest USP of geared bikes in Fuel efficiency ( kitna detai hai ?)

Auto boxes are expensive compared to geared ones

Auto boxes ( 4 strokers esp - not comparing with say a Kinectic Honda ) dont give as good pickup as the geared ones.
Even though geared bikes give better mileage and performance than AT scooters, there's still a huge market for AT scooters. And it's not just the fairer sex that uses Activas, Duros, and Wegos. So, if there's an AT bike, a drop in mileage as compared to a regular bike is not going to deter buyers. Secondly, I feel there'd be a market for more powerful AT bikes as well, where mileage is a secondary concern. I personally would look forward to a powerful cruiser with auto transmission.

Perhaps, if some of the trusted models such as Karizma, Pulsar 220, Avenger, Unicorn, etc. were to come out with the AT option, that'd get the market rolling. That is, if the technical limitations of creating an AT bike can be overcome.
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Old 9th March 2012, 14:45   #23
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluengel180 View Post
Mileage matters.powerful scooters have flopped just due to that aspect (kinetic blaze )

A automatic will have to be beefed up to be comparable to a manual.mileage goes down and so do the sales
Wasn't the KH a 100 CC auto compared to the 150cc Bajaj manuals ? I don't think you to have to beef up the engine, of course there will be loss in FE which some folks won't mind. The Honda Eterno was a manual scooter just for the folks who were migrating from bajaj but it totally flopped.
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Old 9th March 2012, 17:49   #24
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Lightbulb Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
Wasn't the KH a 100 CC auto compared to the 150cc Bajaj manuals ? I don't think you to have to beef up the engine, of course there will be loss in FE which some folks won't mind. The Honda Eterno was a manual scooter just for the folks who were migrating from bajaj but it totally flopped.
The kinetic blaze was a 165cc powerscooter back when the premium bikes were all 150cc. it had great footwear and power with disc brakes. unfortunately though it did compare to the motorcycles on the power front it lost out horribly on the fuel efficiency. bringing in a measly 25-30 kms per litre compare to the 60+ of the 150cc bikes.
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Old 9th March 2012, 17:51   #25
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Vintage Dirt Bikes A Look at Rokon Automatics: Off-Road.com

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Rokon’s weird two-wheel drive Rokon Trailbreakers were one thing, but when Rokon decided to cash in on the expanding dirt bike market things got really strange! The radical machine they came up was a clean-sheet dirt bike design. Remember, this was an era of pipey, piston-port two-strokes with hand-grenade reliability. Motocross riders had to be clutch artists, constantly tap-dancing the shifter just to keep the engines in their narrow powerband. Hop off a modern bike and onto a vintage motocross bike and you’ll instantly develop respect for pro riders of that era!

Instead of fighting that battle Rokon used a simple, reliable 340cc Sachs snowmobile engine. Transmission?What could be easier to use than a snowmobile-style Salsbury clutch? Twist and go. With an infinitely variable. an infinitely variable transmission Rokon engineers didn’t have to worry about a peaky powerband and could instead tune the engine for maximum power and simply adjust the clutch to keep the engine revving at the power peak all the time. A great idea, in theory at least, but would it work on a dirt bike?

A big problem with CVTs is the lack of engine braking. Rokon needed more than the crummy mechanical drums

so common on vintage bikes and was forced to use hydraulic discs. As if an automatic transmission dirt bike with disc brakes wasn’t different enough, Rokon went a step further by developing lightweight cast magnesium wheels. The end result of all this weird science was a fat (by early ‘70s motocross standards at least) but effective line of motocross, enduro and dual-sport bikes that won a whole bunch of ISDT medals, industry accolades for outstanding engineering and even earned AMA national motocross success.

Last edited by proton : 9th March 2012 at 17:57.
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Old 9th March 2012, 23:36   #26
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluengel180 View Post
The kinetic blaze was a 165cc powerscooter back when the premium bikes were all 150cc. it had great footwear and power with disc brakes. unfortunately though it did compare to the motorcycles on the power front it lost out horribly on the fuel efficiency. bringing in a measly 25-30 kms per litre compare to the 60+ of the 150cc bikes.
The Kinetic Blaze was in it's own world. BuTTTT, which 150cc bike gives 60+ kmpl, I would like to know. I am having difficulty in getting 40kmpl from my 2.5 month old 100 cc Dio, maybe i could get 45kmpl riding at best of conditions, that is it. I am sure a 100cc motorcycle will return 50kmpl or a bit more, how come 60+ on a 150cc ? Is it really true ? The ads fro the dio say it can give 55kmpl, i cannot see it crossing 50kmpl in normal conditions.

Moreover when the Kinetic Blaze came out, IIRC there were no 2 wheelers above 100 or maybe 110 cc other than the Macho Bull.
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Old 10th March 2012, 00:42   #27
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Lightbulb Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
The Kinetic Blaze was in it's own world. BuTTTT, which 150cc bike gives 60+ kmpl, I would like to know. I am having difficulty in getting 40kmpl from my 2.5 month old 100 cc Dio, maybe i could get 45kmpl riding at best of conditions, that is it. I am sure a 100cc motorcycle will return 50kmpl or a bit more, how come 60+ on a 150cc ? Is it really true ? The ads fro the dio say it can give 55kmpl, i cannot see it crossing 50kmpl in normal conditions.

Moreover when the Kinetic Blaze came out, IIRC there were no 2 wheelers above 100 or maybe 110 cc other than the Macho Bull.
There is a HUGE difference between the fuel efficiencies of motorcycles and automatic scooters. while 100cc automatics rarely give anything above 45-50 km per hour equivalent 100 cc motorcycles can stretch that to 80-90kmpl.

The kinetic blaze launched around 2005,150 cc motorcycles like the pulsar and the cbz have been around since 2001/1999 respectively. though they weren't BHP crunchers back then as they are right now they were comparatively less thirsty (i still have magazines with non-dtsi pulsar ads claiming 77kmpl)

The honda unicorn still delivers around 60kmpl.as its engine has been untouched since it launched.


Anyone who wonders why we don't have any gearless motorcycles. the demise of the Blaze is the perfect answer. Fuel efficiency MATTERS, and there isn't a niche market big enough who thinks otherwise.

Anyway for those who dont know what a kinetic blaze is, check out what it is capable of.i used to drive one six years back. the seat was like a sofa

http://www.xbhp.com/gir/rides/blaze.php

Last edited by Bluengel180 : 10th March 2012 at 00:49.
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Old 1st April 2012, 19:01   #28
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Like someone said, its the macho factor that is coming in the way of an innovative product.

In a country of commuter bikes like us, its a huge boon, but we have to wait until the Japs and Europeans (the innovators and inventors) feel the need for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverado View Post
The biggest USP of geared bikes in Fuel efficiency ( kitna detai hai ?)
Agreed this is a USP, but the 2nd one is that big wheel motorbikes can take rough roads and potholes better than tiny wheel scoots.

Putting an CVT on a bike will take care of those who want a shift-free experience while enjoying the safety and ride quality of a bike.

Oh by the way...Kinetic Blaze is not a gearless motorcycle..so lets not fool ourselves.

Meanwhile big wheel scoots have taken over Europe...read on

Honda SH125i review - Telegraph

Last edited by Mpower : 1st April 2012 at 19:02.
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Old 1st April 2012, 20:48   #29
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.prashanth View Post
TVS wil be introducing engines with auto transmission next year. It is expected that these revelutionary engine transmission controlled by a ECM will be 20% more fuel efficient than the current vehicles. This will be both motor cycles and scooters

yeah, following is the link on tvs motor website about the auto transmission for bikes and scooters

High performance bikes, Innovative bikes,best style bikes
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Old 20th June 2012, 18:19   #30
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Default Re: Why no gearless motorcycles

Honda's new NC700 with DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) are selling like hot cakes outside India. DCT version of the bike is about 15% more expensive, but owners are mega happy with the performance and efficiency. Looks like it's the future.
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