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Old 26th May 2012, 16:18   #16
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

In my opinion, going the diesel way is a very short-term strategy. Do we have any guarantee that the diesel too will not be deregulated? Once that happens, I am sure a big chunk will again turn back to petrol engines.

What 2-wheelers (as a matter of fact all vehicles) require is a totally different technology. Majority of the 2-wheelers are used for travelling short distances and OEM's need to keep this in mind while developing an alternatice source of energy. I feel a highly efficient electric engine will be the way ahead for this segment.

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Old 26th May 2012, 16:25   #17
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Originally Posted by ajman28
In my opinion, going the diesel way is a very short-term strategy. Do we have any guarantee that the diesel too will not be deregulated? Once that happens, I am sure a big chunk will again turn back to petrol engines.

What 2-wheelers (as a matter of fact all vehicles) require is a totally different technology. Majority of the 2-wheelers are used for travelling short distances and OEM's need to keep this in mind while developing an alternatice source of energy. I feel a highly efficient electric engine will be the way ahead for this segment.


what are electric engines? Where do they get there power from ?

Yes it is a short term strategy next decade or so, but our science is not in position to suggest any long term one , until we find some ggold mine of energy.

Last edited by dustom_99 : 26th May 2012 at 16:29.
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Old 26th May 2012, 16:42   #18
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
what are electric engines? Where do they get there power from ?

Yes it is a short term strategy next decade or so, but our science is not in position to suggest any long term one , until we find some ggold mine of energy.
If your question was to move the topic towards whether electric engines are clean or not, then sorry, that's a different debate all together and there is a thread completely dedicated to it!

Otherwise what I meant by electric engines is: an engine running on electric power. This could be either from batteries, from dedicated tracks, etc. Considering the present development options, the battery seems to be the best solution. But we will require a very efficient system to harness the best from the batteries.

And yes, our science "IS" in a position to suggest long term solutions. There are already many interesting ideas on alternative energy and quite a few of them are already at an advanced stage of development.

And for all those racing enthusiasts, think of a Tesla-like powered 2-wheeler? It may not sound like your SBK, but it surely won't be left gasping at the end of the track!
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Old 26th May 2012, 17:11   #19
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Originally Posted by ajman28

If your question was to move the topic towards whether electric engines are clean or not, then sorry, that's a different debate all together and there is a thread completely dedicated to it!

Otherwise what I meant by electric engines is: an engine running on electric power. This could be either from batteries, from dedicated tracks, etc. Considering the present development options, the battery seems to be the best solution. But we will require a very efficient system to harness the best from the batteries.

And yes, our science "IS" in a position to suggest long term solutions. There are already many interesting ideas on alternative energy and quite a few of them are already at an advanced stage of development.

IAnd for all those racing enthusiasts, think of a Tesla-like powered 2-wheeler? It may not sound like your SBK, but it surely won't be left gasping at the end of the track!
No sir , not at all.i did not intend to move to pollution, I wanted to bring about the fact that electric vehicles are more or less diesel or coal fed power plants. Nuclear and renewable being very tiny % on total power.
For every single kw of electricity used by the vehicle, nearly 1.7-2kw needs to be generated, thanks to transmission losses. so why not use the mechanical prime mover right on the vehicle itself, you save colossal losses, and get freedom from long recharge time.
Many interesting ideas have been around for over 4 decades,but sadly none of them have made an impact on actual market of petrol our diesel vehicle. I wonder why?
What we need is direct to use energy source, which can be placed rite on the spot where it needs to do the job.or else w need super batteries+super conductors+ cryogenics + I dunno what else to send power from power generation point to the vehicle and still be efficient.
Idea is great, does not sound cheap though.
May be science "IS" already there in your part of the world.
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Old 26th May 2012, 17:42   #20
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
man! you seems to have absolutely no idea, none at all.
^^Sheesh!! Where's a mod when you need one?

Maybe you can enlighten me on a few points. What new development has been made to address these issues:

1. Piston weight. Can you tell me what percentage drop there has been in piston weight with the so called new alloys?
2. Flywheel weight. If you have reduced the weight, what new technology is keeping the diesel engine going?
3. Torque pulses. What new development has been made to eliminate the torque pulse due to the high compression ratio ignition in a diesel engine?

Lets assume that you have solved all the above problems. How are you going to economically package the high pressure fuel rack, mandatory fuel filter and dedicated fuel pump into a scooter/2 wheeler package?

Is there any reason why many manufacturers with limitless capabilities have not successfully done this yet? Maybe they are all as clueless as I am.

Cheers

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Man, your post sounds harsh. Granted, you may not like such a product but why rubbish it? Diesels have improved vastly.
I have not rubbished anything.

I will be just as happy as the next guy if a viable economic transport for the masses is produced. But just wishing for one and hoping for one is not enough. I am a realist, and I know the current limitations we have.

If you feel a CRDI engine is vibe free enough for mass production in a scooter body, why has somebody not done it yet? Just the fact that you are ready to handle the back breaking vibes to save a few bucks is not enough. The frame has to agree as well.

The smaller a diesel engine, the higher the compression ratio, and the higher the torque pulses. Instead of just arguing for a small capacity diesel scooter because it would help the aam aadmi so much, try backing up your argument with some viable possibilities.

Please take the time to study diesel engines, harmonic vibrations, torque pulses, etc., etc before dismissing my post as rubbish.

Cheers

Ride Safe.

Last edited by GTO : 11th June 2012 at 11:09. Reason: Removing one line which others might find offensive (i.e. idea in your mind is rubbish)
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Old 26th May 2012, 18:49   #21
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

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Last edited by Mpower : 26th May 2012 at 23:26. Reason: see PM
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Old 26th May 2012, 23:37   #22
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Mpower, isn't this what they said about diesel cars a few years ago? But look where they stand today. Not only in terms of economy but even in terms of performance diesels are leaving petrols behind.

As for sound, trust me it will grow on us. I remember first time I heard Activa ten year ago, I laughed. It was the first 4-stroke scooter and it sounded funny. We were not used to scooters making such sound. But today Actva sounds much better than Kinetic Honda ZX. Granted that diesel will never be as quiet as petrol but when it is time to refill, all pains will be forgotten. Besides technology, especially diesel technology is getting there.
Well Sagar, you bring up some great points. Let me point out some telling differences.

-Most cars are 4 cyl which are inherently well balanced compared to a single. Make it a diesel and you are compounding the vibration problem. 4 or even 3 cyl scooter is not feasible in India.
-Car engines are mounted using large rubber or hydraulic mounts on a subframe which in turn could be mounted to the chassis using a 2nd layer of rubber mounts. In a scoot/bike engines are directly bolted to the chassis.
-In a typical car, the engine sits in a semi-sealed chamber (under the hood) and the passengers are in a 'separate' & fully-sealed chamber separated by a firewall.
-Some luxury cars use a solid 30-40 kg of sound deadening in the firewall and under hood. All these things are not practical in a scoot.
-Also check my post in the Vespa125 thread where we discussed how much people are willing to spend on a scoot.
-2nd point, look at the public acceptance of the Sooraj Diesel..or lack thereof

I'm sure all these can be overcome by some rigorous R&D but someone needs to have the guts and vision and the millions of dollars to do it.

Last edited by Mpower : 27th August 2012 at 20:51.
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Old 29th May 2012, 16:24   #23
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

There are many diesel 2wheelers in production (Royal enfield was only India company). Though big engine size (thus more costly).


Found following on google.
------------
College students build diesel scooter returning 110kpl
A group of newbie engineers form a Bangalore based engineering college, all inspired by their motto of achieving more fuel economy have developed a prototype of their project which is a diesel powered motor-scooter which does 110 kmpl in actual life. The team consists of mechanical engineering students from M S Ramaiah Institute of Technology. The basic construction of their project is that they have fitted a diesel Bullet engine to a Kinetic Blaze scooter, amazingly being able to retain the automatic transmission and clutch from the Kinetic scooter itself.

------------
Thiruvananthapuram: A group of students of the Lourde Matha College of Science and Technology at Kuttichal, near here, has developed a turbo-charged engine for the Royal Enfield Taurus, the only diesel motorcycle in the Indian market.
The prototype cost Rs.17,000 and took seven months to complete.
The Hindu : Kerala / Thiruvananthapuram News : Students tweak diesel motorbike for better performance
Diesel motorcycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 29th May 2012, 16:40   #24
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajman28 View Post
Majority of the 2-wheelers are used for travelling short distances and OEM's need to keep this in mind while developing an alternatice source of energy. I feel a highly efficient electric engine will be the way ahead for this segment.

Completely agree. I am wondering why this segment has not developed.
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Old 29th May 2012, 18:17   #25
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Default Re: Time for a diesel scooter?

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Originally Posted by max8791 View Post
------------
Thiruvananthapuram: A group of students of the Lourde Matha College of Science and Technology at Kuttichal, near here, has developed a turbo-charged engine for the Royal Enfield Taurus, the only diesel motorcycle in the Indian market.
The prototype cost Rs.17,000 and took seven months to complete.
The Hindu : Kerala / Thiruvananthapuram News : Students tweak diesel motorbike for better performance
Diesel motorcycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think the price mentioned here is a little misleading. I wonder if it is Rs. 17,000 for the whole proto or just the modification? I would go with the latter!
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Old 29th May 2012, 19:10   #26
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Originally Posted by ajman28

I think the price mentioned here is a little misleading. I wonder if it is Rs. 17,000 for the whole proto or just the modification? I would go with the latter!
I saw this project, they have an indica turbo installed complete with oil lines snd everything. Also looks like a neat job. Although no official report was available, students claimed about 4% increase in power. Base motor was 7/8 hp.
This 17k was project expense, along with 2nd hand diesel bullet.

Last edited by dustom_99 : 29th May 2012 at 19:11.
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