Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Motorbikes


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th July 2012, 03:58   #1
BHPian
 
Shivank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chandigrh/Noida
Posts: 320
Thanked: 185 Times
Default Bikers Beware: Tube Type, Tubeless and Tire conundrum!

Something really unusual, weird and potentially hazardous happened to me (and my brother) while we were trundling around at 30kph or so on my bike. The rear tire came off the RIM!!


This not only caught us both by surprise but is also a testimony to my foolery, as my brother puts it. The reason is that I recently swapped the rear tire of my bike with a Michelin. And the best part is it’s a Tube-type (TT) tire that is/was spinning on a Tubeless (TL) rim. This recipe for disaster was planned at a nearby tyre shop.


Roughly a month ago, when the monsoons were approaching and the treads on the rear tire were disappearing, I decided to go for a new one. Asked Dad for the same and some cash was handed over immediately. The following 2 or 3 days I kept searching for the best tire available in the market. There were not many brands to choose from. Michelin, MRF, Ceat and TVS tires were the only brands, which I could find over at most of the dealerships in Dehradun. As I am a sucker for cornering I picked Michelin tire basis this criterion. Meantime, I also had to take care of tire profile and stock size. The Michelin Pilot Sporty was the closest thing that matched all of my wishes. I scavenged through various forums wherein the reviews of the tire were shared. The feedback from many of the users was mostly positive and satisfactory. This triggered my interest in the tire a bit more. The next day I went to a trusted dealer and asked for the tire. I checked my options one more time, but finally settled for the Michelin; asked him to fit it immediately. It ended there.


However, one thing I had completely forgotten that time, and I am really cursing myself for it now, is to have failed to check whether the tire was tubeless or tube type. I know I am the only one to be blamed here for making a complete fool out of myself. But at the same time, I wouldn’t spare the dealer for his role in this act. I remember when the tire was brought forth from the store (before it was being fitted) it had a tube inside. This made me apprehensive and I questioned the dealer whether it is tubeless tire or not. Till that time, I thought Pilot Sporty to be a tubeless tire. The dealer promptly replied assuring me that it was indeed a tubeless tire, but could also be used with a tube. Being an illiterate ignoramus that I was back then, I didn’t bother much with checking the markings on the rubber. I can however clearly remember asking the dealer about the tube inside 2 or 3 times more. And his answer was- Donít worry, bhaiya. It’s our daily business. We have sold many of these tires to the people riding the same bike and for other bikes as well, which run on tubeless rims. Like for example, I heard R15 coming off his mouth twice or thrice! I took his word for it and went ahead.


From then onwards, I have taken my bike to every possible terrain one can think of. Off-roading, slush, wet tarmac, loose gravel; corner carving-the tire has been put to rigorous tests since the first day. I was really amazed and impressed by the performance of the Michelin. You can check on RTR ownership threads on how I was singing praises about the tire the other day. Come today though, like I was telling before, it all came to an end abruptly. The rear tire came off the rim all of a sudden.


I was riding at 30kph or so and suddenly the bike started to lean towards the left. I could immediately sense the air-loss as did my brother sitting as pillion, who had already started yelling from behind. I managed to pull over safely and on inspecting the tire it was found completely flat. This was again an eye-opener as from what I know and have experienced TL tires don’t go flat immediately. Luckily, we were able to locate a puncture-waala a few hundred meters ahead and I asked him to check for any puncture. Observations that followed were again baffling. As he was trying to fill in the air, the same time there was a lot of leakage from the sidewall. He showed me the wheel from where the tire was completely off it. He was also scratching his head like I was. May be he didn’t know that the tire was not TL but a TT. We couldn’t find out any solution and as it was already getting late at around 9:30 pm, I had no other choice but to drag my ride back home!


Once back without batting an eyelid I jumped on to over the internet and eventually, on Google. And from what I have gathered till now, many people are happily running tube-type tire on tubeless rims without even having a clue of the danger involved in this practice. It’s more on the empirical side and no one has a valid proof on its safety in long-term. Also, I am yet to come across any tire manufacturer that supports this method. People might have covered over 20k miles doing the same, but trust me; it feels perfectly fine till the time you start to swerve towards one side of the road without steering. I wouldn’t suggest practicing that to anyone after what I have gone-through today!


Now, the upshot from whole of this incident- I usually ride 30km a day because I like riding my bike over here. I must also add on the fact that 90% of this distance is mostly covered on hilly and twisty stuff. Once in a week I also raid a nearby hill-station, which is about 60 km from here; once in a while 120 kilometres a day. So, let’s assume I am naive (which I am actually!) and I haven’t got a clue what on earth does TT and TL acronym stand for on a tire sidewall. I just know I want a tubeless tire for my bike. The fake expert sitting at these local dealerships suggests me to go for a certain tire and I take the plunge as per his advice. That means my safety, my bones and my life, nothing matters to a grabby dealer who just wants to make profit of a few hundred bucks in a day. Everything goes for a toss. What would have happened if I were riding at over 100kmph? Or, the time when I could have been thrown down the gorge while coming down from the aforesaid hill-station. I really have to thank my lucky stars today. I wouldn’t have been talking to you right now otherwise. Or, have at least doubled the number of bones in my body had I been riding on those hills today. This is so scary, you know!


Another thing is what do I do with that tire now? I am yet to visit the dealer and yell at him though. Very unlikely that he’s going to do something about it now. I am sure he’s going to suggest fitting a tube and will wash his hands of the whole thing. It could work, but I am not sure how I am going to get back my confidence on that tire again. Have gone through different forum posts on the same where some suggest inserting a tube is not a big deal while some ask to avoid it. I am not ready to play my odds at it over again. Should I just bin that rubber?

Last edited by Shivank : 16th July 2012 at 04:03.
Shivank is offline   (8) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 09:40   #2
Team-BHP Support
 
bblost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 9,327
Thanked: 5,722 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Thanks for sharing. I have had a similar thing happen on my cycle and luckily that was at a low speed on an incline.

I shudder to think of this happening on a motorcycle.
bblost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 10:14   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,544
Thanked: 1,148 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Yes, many people don't even know to read the sidewall of a tire and see if its TT ot TL.

BTW even i have used pilot sporty 110/80-17 in TL form. It was clearly written on sidewall "Tubeless. Use with tube on a tube type rim" .

Yes the dealer won't do anything now.All you can is go shout at him to vent your frustration on him! Which size are you using and which bike? I suggest you use the tuff-up tube sold at Honda dealerships and use your tire . It wont harm in any way.

Anyway pilot sporty are really soft tires and wont last you more than 15K kms. I used mine for 14K kms .There was still some tread left for another 3K kms but one of the puncture started leaking.

Keep the tire.But use a tuff up tube. Use it. You will love it for its wet grip
sagarpadaki is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 10:16   #4
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MUMBAI
Posts: 3,059
Thanked: 4,483 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivank View Post
And his answer was- Donít worry, bhaiya. Itís our daily business. We have sold many of these tires to the people riding the same bike and for other bikes as well, which run on tubeless rims. Like for example, I heard R15 coming off his mouth twice or thrice!
Dear Shivank - what other reply did you expect? I am not surprised. To him, your life hardly matters. This is the reality in our country and there are umpteem people like you out there, to sell any tire to them for any application!

Technically, tubed tires and tubeless tires are as different as apples and oranges. I have the original 1984 model Ind-Suzuki AX100 for which the OE size tubed tire is 2.75*18. Every single shop that I went to suggested me to go in for 3.00*18 tire. They do not realize that the wheel rim specification for 2.75*18 tire is 1.4 whereas the 3.00*18 tire needs a 1.6 wheel rim. Who cares? Well, I care for my own life. So, when I finally got 2.75*18, I bought two of them because after some time even the manufacturer will stop production. I don't think anybody knows so where is the question of caring! Lives can be lost because of this rampant nonsense going on all over the place. There is a catalogue called the ITTAC manual. I have not studied the 2 wheeler ITTAC manual but for 4 wheelers, the wheel rim profile is different for both applications. I strongly urge you not to deviate from manufacturer's specifications. I hope many people read these common sense comments and do something about it. Amen!

All the fancy conversations that people have with other people in fancy tire shops with chrome wheels hanging all over the place must mean nothing to you from today onwards. Please use only what is technically correct and please do not get swayed by fancy names. Indian tires are good. Use them. Promise me this, your life will be better, in the long run you will save money also.

Best regards,
Behram Dhabhar
DHABHAR.BEHRAM is offline   (14) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 10:32   #5
BHPian
 
bullboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 576
Thanked: 33 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

My pulsar is running on TL tires with tube in it , as this is because the rims dont support TL tires .Before making this decision I searched many forums and enqired many people and they said that its fine to do so.
I have been running this setup for more than 6-7k kms and didn't had much issues. Btw, the tires are MRF zapper used in r15.
bullboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 11:50   #6
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MUMBAI
Posts: 3,059
Thanked: 4,483 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullboy View Post
My pulsar is running on TL tires with tube in it , as this is because the rims dont support TL tires .Before making this decision I searched many forums and enqired many people and they said that its fine to do so. I have been running this setup for more than 6-7k kms and didn't had much issues. Btw, the tires are MRF zapper used in r15.
Dear Bullboy - what is important is to know whether "your Pulsar" wheel rim (there are many Pulsar models having many different wheel rims), "technically" supports the R15 tire. "Technically" is extremely important here. Please read my post above, it clarifies this point in totality. Just because something ran for 6000 kms, it does not justify the system as "technically correct". I am not saying what you did is correct or wrong, I don't know your bike specifications but I am just making a point in principle.

What is not technically correct should never even get fitted on the bike, let alone using it!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
DHABHAR.BEHRAM is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 12:03   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
alpha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: P00NA
Posts: 1,589
Thanked: 907 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
... I have the original 1984 model Ind-Suzuki AX100 for which the OE size tubed tire is 2.75*18. Every single shop that I went to suggested me to go in for 3.00*18 tire. They do not realize that the wheel rim specification for 2.75*18 tire is 1.4 whereas the 3.00*18 tire needs a 1.6 wheel rim. Who cares? ...
What are the 1.4 and 1.6 wheel rim numbers?
I mean what do they stand for?

Last edited by Amartya : 18th July 2012 at 02:06. Reason: Minor Edit: Kept only relevant portion of the quoted post. Thanks.
alpha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 12:13   #8
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MUMBAI
Posts: 3,059
Thanked: 4,483 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
What are the 1.4 and 1.6 wheel rim numbers?
I mean what do they stand for?
Dear Alpha1 - if I am not mistaken, it is the width of the wheel rim from bead center to bead center in inches. I have not deep dived in this area so please Google this and check this out. If you put a 3.00*18 on a 1.4, the tire sidewalls will naturally bulge out and it will affect performance / safety. In a nonsense situation, it can lead to catastrophic failure as Shivank here has experienced and is fotrunate to live to tell the tale!

I hope more and more people read this post and learn something from it.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
DHABHAR.BEHRAM is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 12:39   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
akshay4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chandigarh/Mohali/Ambala Cantt
Posts: 3,755
Thanked: 1,506 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

I have used a Michelin Sirac(Mentioned as tube type)on my Ex Karizma as a tubeless for over 15K kms in all sorts of terrains,read off roads,water,river beds and what not,without any problem,and i know a few other people who have done rides like Mumbai-Spiti and back on a Michelin Sirac mounted as a tubeless on Alloy rim.
Though its not recommended,lack of options made me do it,and i never faced any problem,not even a flat tyre(being mounted as TL).
Being a Off road dual purpose tyre,Sirac was able to take the abuse easily.
akshay4587 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 13:01   #10
BHPian
 
praful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 931
Thanked: 369 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

^^ Adding to Akshay's above post!

I have been using Sirac's (on my 3rd one one) for about 50K kms now. They are TT tyres, but run without a hitch on my TL rims. And the tyres have seen the worst possible terrain!

I don't think your issue is with running a TT tyre on a TL rim, but instead a improper fitment issue/improper rim-width matching issue. The beading might have slipped inwards or your rim as a bend somewhere. I don't remember the source for this, but I remember reading this somewhere, thought Michelin is branding most of its two wheeler tyres as TT, they can be used as TL as all the models have good sidewall strength. This has been reinforced by my regular use of the Michelin Sirac over the last 3 years now.
praful is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 13:17   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: pune
Posts: 2,088
Thanked: 48 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

I am not sure if the issue is about if that is TL or TT, but about whether it is the right size.

I fear, even a TL tyre with wrong size specifications may end up giving the same results.
RX135 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 13:21   #12
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 150
Thanked: 68 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: TT, TL and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by praful View Post
^^ Adding to Akshay's above post!

I have been using Sirac's (on my 3rd one one) for about 50K kms now. They are TT tyres, but run without a hitch on my TL rims. And the tyres have seen the worst possible terrain!

I don't think your issue is with running a TT tyre on a TL rim, but instead a improper fitment issue/improper rim-width matching issue. The beading might have slipped inwards or your rim as a bend somewhere. I don't remember the source for this, but I remember reading this somewhere, thought Michelin is branding most of its two wheeler tyres as TT, they can be used as TL as all the models have good sidewall strength. This has been reinforced by my regular use of the Michelin Sirac over the last 3 years now.
I second it. I've seen people here fitting TL tyres using regular calipers (beating it around, no lube etc). I seen this happening and tyre going bad in this procedure. Did they use machines for fitment of the tyre?... Last time when i changed to Pirelli SD for my pulsar, i switched a couple of shops just because they were fitting it manually. In fact the reason given by MRF dealer for my earlier MRF Zapper going bad was improper fitment.
knaveen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 13:47   #13
BHPian
 
amit_purohit20's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mumbai
Posts: 546
Thanked: 431 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: Tube Type, Tubeless and Tire conundrum!

Shivank,
I suggest you fit a normal tube and use the tyre for its useful life. Once the tube is inflated inside you wont have the possibility of air leaking between tyre bead and rim. Next time have your wheel balanced and checked for out of roundness like how we do it for spoke rims to check whether your rims are fine. If they are fine without any undulations next time go for a tubeless tyre after matching the rim dimensions to the tyre profile.
There is no problem in fitting a tube type tyre with a tube on a tubeless rim. Tubeless rim might be a little different than Tubetype rims. Tubeless rims have a slightly different rim shoulder depth to retain the tubeless tyre beads that is what I learnt after googling in, even one site had cross sections of the rims to show the difference.
amit_purohit20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2012, 15:13   #14
BHPian
 
Shivank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chandigrh/Noida
Posts: 320
Thanked: 185 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: Tube Type, Tubeless and Tire conundrum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Yes, many people don't even know to read the sidewall of a tire and see if its TT ot TL.
Which size are you using and which bike? I suggest you use the tuff-up tube sold at Honda dealerships and use your tire . It wont harm in any way.
I was using it on the RTR180. The stock size is 110/80-17 whereas the one I had fitted is 100/90-17.

I will discuss this tuff-up solution with the dealer for sure. My first priority however is to dump that rubber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Shivank
All the fancy conversations that people have with other people in fancy tire shops with chrome wheels hanging all over the place must mean nothing to you from today onwards. Please use only what is technically correct and please do not get swayed by fancy names. Indian tires are good. Use them. Promise me this, your life will be better, in the long run you will save money also.
That is insightful. I wish I had read something like this before...

It was again my bad to have missed out on such an important detail. Shouldn't have believed the dealer in the first place. What I did there was simply follow and run with the pack. What I read on most of the forums I followed blindly. I do not blame none of those guys who suggested that as they haven't experienced this till now. I just wanted to bring this issue up, so that others on the forum and elsewhere can take cue from it. As they say, once bitten twice shy, I am definitely going to stick to stock spec from now onward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by praful View Post
^^ Adding to Akshay's above post!

I don't think your issue is with running a TT tyre on a TL rim, but instead a improper fitment issue/improper rim-width matching issue. The beading might have slipped inwards or your rim as a bend somewhere. I don't remember the source for this, but I remember reading this somewhere, thought Michelin is branding most of its two wheeler tyres as TT, they can be used as TL as all the models have good sidewall strength. This has been reinforced by my regular use of the Michelin Sirac over the last 3 years now.
Akshay and Praful, I am sure it's not only you guys but many others too who have been successfully running Tube type tires on tube-less rims. Till yesterday, I was of the same opinion as yours. It was only 2 days ago when amit_purohit20 told me that Pilot Sporty is a tube-type tire and not tubeless. This prompted me to visit through Google and various forum posts once again. And I was re-assured that it's not a big deal doing that. I even suggested Amit to go for the same tire as well.

However, as you have mentioned, it could be due to the bent rim or wrong size though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
I am not sure if the issue is about if that is TL or TT, but about whether it is the right size.

I fear, even a TL tyre with wrong size specifications may end up giving the same results.
It could be. But many people are running the same tire/same size on the same bikes as well. For e.g, the R15 v1 rubber which is of the same size as Pilot Sporty is quite famous among RTR180 owners. Only that it's tubeless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knaveen View Post
Did they use machines for fitment of the tyre?...
He did use the machine for fitment. And if memory serves right, he sprayed a lube-like thing on the tire sidewall after it was done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
Next time have your wheel balanced and checked for out of roundness like how we do it for spoke rims to check whether your rims are fine.
Wheel balancing for alloy wheels (motorcycle) is some thing I haven't seen for years. All I have come across are people hammering the rim and claiming it's been balanced.

Fitting a tube is the only way out now with that tire, but I will try if I can get stock spec rubber in replacement. Even if it means spending extra cash I'd do that.

And again, thank you all for your suggestions!

Last edited by Shivank : 16th July 2012 at 15:14.
Shivank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2012, 00:34   #15
BHPian
 
datvichrox2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 108
Thanked: 288 Times
Default Re: Bikers Beware: Tube Type, Tubeless and Tire conundrum!

Thanks for sharing this.

I am not an expert on tires, but I am sure there must be differences between a TT and TL tire, that makes them suitable or unsuitable for any specific application.

If there was no difference between TT and TL tyres, wouldn't it make sense to just make one of them? I just think it is better to play safe than to experiment with something that could cause a safety hazard, not just for you but for others on the road.
datvichrox2 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tube-type to Tubeless conversion?! tsk1979 Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 55 8th October 2014 13:15
Tube-Type Tyres Converted to Tubeless - Is it safe? bhp Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 46 7th March 2010 20:52
Tubeless or tube type for wagonR without PS english Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 15 29th July 2008 19:20
Tube tyres converted into tubeless - Is it possible and safe?? Deeps Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 3 28th September 2007 20:22
"Tube type" tubeless tyre vRS Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 4 8th March 2006 23:39


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 22:37.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks