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Old 26th March 2013, 18:43   #331
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

  1. While Duke 200 has significant advantage over CBR250R in terms of power/weight ratio, CBR250R is still faster than Duke200 for 0-100. Why is that so?
  2. If above is true, how would Duke 390 compare with Ninja 300R with almost same power?
  3. Why would Duke390 have lower top speed than 300R, if the power output for D390 is higher than 300R? Is that due to full fairing (lower wind resistance at high speed), or is that due to tall gearing?
  4. I wonder what equation would be with CBR500R with similar power output.
While this question belongs to different thread, I am still clueless why CBR250R is faster than Duke200.
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Old 26th March 2013, 18:52   #332
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile View Post
Tiny miny! I would've definitely preferred a more visually substantial looking bike.
Good Point! Customers do like the feel of a big brawny bike, but to a designer this conflicts with the idea making a true performance bike.

Making a bike more compact is the current trend in sportbikes & this is in the interest of handling and lightweighting.

Some new literbikes are smaller than 600s from a decade ago.

This is where Hyosung product shines. Big bike feel for small bike money

Last edited by Mpower : 26th March 2013 at 21:53.
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Old 26th March 2013, 18:55   #333
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
t.While this question belongs to different thread, I am still clueless why CBR250R is faster than Duke200.
^^ CBR is not really faster , the D200's acceleration is on par with the cbr . The duke has a short stroke engine with short gearing , while the cbr has a taller gearing . The duke has electronically restricted top speed which cuts off the fuel supply beyond certain speed . If someone could remove that restricter setting , i am sure the duke 200 could munch some more numbers . But cbr has the edge of 50 more cc which may make it less strained at high speeds . Just my opinion, The pros can make it clear if there is a mistake.

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Old 26th March 2013, 20:10   #334
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
As I clarified in an subsequent post, I was not referring to simple speeding to overtake on the highways, which is of course understandable when one is driving a powerful vehicle on a highway. I was expressing my frustration at irresponsibly driven cars that cut right ACROSS multiple lanes in a flash, moving from the fast lane meant for overtaking into the slow lane where bikers like me thump along, simply to gain a momentary advantage over already fast moving traffic in the fast lane.

Once again, getting back to topic, interesting thought, older chaps like me might think of the KTM 200 and 390 as 'premium' bikes, but for a lot of younger guys, these may very well be their first bike! Perhaps even their college bike. Nice!
True. Even I feel that when our group of bulleteers are on rides, although in a group other vehicles don't dare to bully us, because of the numbers.

A Duke 200/CBR 250 is an entry level commuter/first bike elsewhere in the world, for us brought up on a diet of puny 100/150/180 cc mopeds these bikes naturally felt premium. However now it seems that we are catching up with the rest of the world.

However the Ninja 250 still is considered a premium bike by almost all, maybe the twin cylinder sports-bike styling and the high price tag make it feel that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
  1. While Duke 200 has significant advantage over CBR250R in terms of power/weight ratio, CBR250R is still faster than Duke200 for 0-100. Why is that so?
  2. If above is true, how would Duke 390 compare with Ninja 300R with almost same power?
  3. Why would Duke390 have lower top speed than 300R, if the power output for D390 is higher than 300R? Is that due to full fairing (lower wind resistance at high speed), or is that due to tall gearing?
  4. I wonder what equation would be with CBR500R with similar power output.
While this question belongs to different thread, I am still clueless why CBR250R is faster than Duke200.
I believe its the way these bikes are geared, also the lack of fairing on the duke, cuts down the top end by a fair margin. Duke gearing is very city oriented with great acceleration in the first few gears but by the time one gets to 100 the gearing may feel too short, the CBR is more highway oriented with a wind cutting fairing, it gets pretty long legged.

I am not sure on the 300/390, especially because of the lack of information regarding their gear ratios/torque and power values.
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Old 27th March 2013, 13:30   #335
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by Akhilash95 View Post
The duke has a short stroke engine with short gearing , while the cbr has a taller gearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I believe its the way these bikes are geared, also the lack of fairing on the duke, cuts down the top end by a fair margin. Duke gearing is very city oriented with great acceleration in the first few gears but by the time one gets to 100 the gearing may feel too short, the CBR is more highway oriented with a wind cutting fairing, it gets pretty long legged.
With shorter gearing, the top end will be restricted. But, I am not sure why it should impact 0-100 as well, since shorter gears are supposed to give much better acceleration. Both of them are capable of doing 140+ speeds, so 100 is not exactly top end.

With such superior power/weight ratio, I was expecting Duke to simply decimate CBR250R in terms of acceleration, if not at the top end.
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Old 27th March 2013, 14:32   #336
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

It's almost 8 years since I rode a decent bike. I saw the first Duke 200 an year back I guess. I instantly fell for the nude/raw look. A neighbour living next door has a Duke and has maintained it shiny new. Every day I kept seeing the bike and got awed by its sheer looks. I have now spent many days reading and watching videos of this bike.
I am now waiting for the 390 to unleash my youth again.
I called up the KTM-Indiranagar, Bangalore showroom and they say that the tentative launch is around June/July and will be priced between 2-2.5L.

KTM and Bajaj, Bring it on. Everyone's waiting
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Old 28th March 2013, 11:30   #337
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
[*]While Duke 200 has significant advantage over CBR250R in terms of power/weight ratio, CBR250R is still faster than Duke200 for 0-100. Why is that so?
I thought all tests pointed to the Duke having faster 0-100 times? Please also remember that the Duke taking on the CBR starts with a handicap of 25% less cubic capacity. So revs are its only ally. And the revs are capped in the interest of engine life, which is important for us Indians who expect an engine to do a lac kms before needing any work.

Quote:
[*]If above is true, how would Duke 390 compare with Ninja 300R with almost same power?[*]Why would Duke390 have lower top speed than 300R, if the power output for D390 is higher than 300R? Is that due to full fairing (lower wind resistance at high speed), or is that due to tall gearing?
Again revs. The Duke 390 would be capped at around 10-11,000 rpm. Its a single and 10,000+ rpm is a lot for a single. The Ninja 250 I think revs to 14,000 rpm. The 300 would be around the same. Thats the inherent strength of a twin. But weakness is there at the lower revs where the instant punch of a single would be missing. I briefly rode my cousin's Ninja a long time ago in Mumbai. In the city, it felt dead at lower speeds in traffic. The Duke leaps forward with minimal throttle input. The Ninja would be lovely when you get the road. So would the Duke, if you can live with the engine "feeling" stressed (within its limiter, its not really stressed - its designed that way). But the Duke would be really lovely in the city and tight curving hill roads and even off road and no road. There I feel the Ninja would come second, as a predominantly good tarmac oriented bike, though honestly I would need to ride the Ninja a lot more to make such a call.

Its purely my personal opinion here, well before riding either bike, but the bigger Duke would be the better all round much more bang for buck bike. The Ninja would be an expensive precision tool for those who are very clear about what they are buying and what they intend to use it for. Again as i said earlier, slightly more heft to the Duke, and for me it would have been a no brainer.

Quote:
[*]I wonder what equation would be with CBR500R with similar power output.
The CBR would be the more relaxed mile munching tourer. Does not look dimensionally different to the 250 though. Its a typical big single with gobs of torque. But the game has moved on from the really big thumpers like the KLR 650 at around 37 off bhp only and the DR 650 and the XR 650 at around 44 odd bhp. Big enduros. World tourers even. The CBR is more a road bike. Even the X is more moto than enduro. It will be big and heavy and a comfortable two up tourer. But it will not be anywhere as sharp or quick or fast as the other two inspite of the big cc advantage.

Last edited by ebonho : 28th March 2013 at 11:38.
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Old 28th March 2013, 13:32   #338
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Again revs. The Duke 390 would be capped at around 10-11,000 rpm. Its a single and 10,000+ rpm is a lot for a single. The Ninja 250 I think revs to 14,000 rpm. The 300 would be around the same. Thats the inherent strength of a twin. But weakness is there at the lower revs where the instant punch of a single would be missing. I briefly rode my cousin's Ninja a long time ago in Mumbai. In the city, it felt dead at lower speeds in traffic. The Duke leaps forward with minimal throttle input. The Ninja would be lovely when you get the road. So would the Duke, if you can live with the engine "feeling" stressed (within its limiter, its not really stressed - its designed that way). But the Duke would be really lovely in the city and tight curving hill roads and even off road and no road. There I feel the Ninja would come second, as a predominantly good tarmac oriented bike, though honestly I would need to ride the Ninja a lot more to make such a call.
(+1) Absolutely correct, recently drove a friend's Duke 200 and I was amazed at the throttle response at lower revs. But would not be able to compare it with the Ninja since I haven't got a chance to lay my hands on it yet. But the 390 is going to be a deadly devil with 45 PS at it's disposal.
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Old 28th March 2013, 13:39   #339
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
I thought all tests pointed to the Duke having faster 0-100 times? Please also remember that the Duke taking on the CBR starts with a handicap of 25% less cubic capacity. So revs are its only ally. .
I have to dig out where all I read, but I read at least 2-3 reviews (Okay, just found Zigwheels), which claimed CBR to be faster than Duke, and I was surprised.

Irrespective of engine size, I would expect following 3 to be crucial factor for 0-100:
  1. Power output
  2. Torque spread (more at lower rpm)
  3. Power/weight
In fact, I'll be happy to have an engine producing higher power at lower RPM. As long as power output of 2 engines remains the same, I would expect other 2 factors to play deciding role. Duke has same power rating, better low end torque and much better power/weight ratio.



If the published 0-100 numbers are true, either the gearing on the Duke is too short, or wind resistance plays too big role than what I thought.


I do agree that higher cubic capacity would be better for the engine life.
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Old 28th March 2013, 13:46   #340
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
or wind resistance plays too big role than what I thought.
Detrimental effects of wind resistance will only start slowing you down significantly enough once you pass 90-100 Kmph.
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Old 28th March 2013, 14:00   #341
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
I have to dig out where all I read, but I read at least 2-3 reviews (Okay, just found Zigwheels), which claimed CBR to be faster than Duke, and I was surprised.
Yes I was very surpised as well, more about the CBR braking better than it being quicker 0-100. The brakes of the CBR (even the ABS version) are a known achilles heel. Anyways I know Varad really well. So if he says this is how it is, then its good enough for me.
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Old 28th March 2013, 14:21   #342
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Yes I was very surpised as well, more about the CBR braking better than it being quicker 0-100. The brakes of the CBR (even the ABS version) are a known achilles heel. Anyways I know Varad really well. So if he says this is how it is, then its good enough for me.
Too bad! So, other than me, I got at least one more person scratching his head over the numbers now

Ninja with superior power output beating up CBR and Duke was no brainer, but the Duke-CBR comparo is perplexing for sure. Let's see how Duke390 fares. If short gearing is turning out to be the problem, they should fix it on D390 at least.

BTW, my experience doesn't count much here since it was way too short ride, but when I came back from my test ride of CBR, I was disappointed. I had "felt" that, my RX135 was quicker, livelier and fun to ride than CBR (which obviously is not true). Yet to drive a Duke to compare.

Last edited by RX135 : 28th March 2013 at 14:22.
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Old 28th March 2013, 16:08   #343
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Yet to drive a Duke to compare.
Have a go on the Duke, it will feel like the RX day's all over again.

I many 2-strokers who have waited patiently for years to upgrade their bikes, ended up buying the Duke 200 and are super happy with it.

Last edited by praful : 28th March 2013 at 16:12.
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Old 28th March 2013, 16:24   #344
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Too bad! So, other than me, I got at least one more person scratching his head over the numbers now

Ninja with superior power output beating up CBR and Duke was no brainer, but the Duke-CBR comparo is perplexing for sure. Let's see how Duke390 fares. If short gearing is turning out to be the problem, they should fix it on D390 at least.

BTW, my experience doesn't count much here since it was way too short ride, but when I came back from my test ride of CBR, I was disappointed. I had "felt" that, my RX135 was quicker, livelier and fun to ride than CBR (which obviously is not true). Yet to drive a Duke to compare.
Nope, I am the third one. I expected the Duke 200 to possibly be 1 sec quicker than CBR 250, due the much superior power/weight ratio. However, the D200 can at best be passed on as just about as quick as a CBR (even though a lot more fun). So, I was little underwhelmed. But that is due to small capacity of the engine ans extremely short gearing.

The small capacity engines (also seen in petrol 4 wheeler these days:- small capacity direct injection, turbo charged -VAG engines), tend to have these characteristics. They are much quicker than the typical similar sized engines of other vehicles but land up just short of what their specs lead you to believe. The small capacity engine has to work extremely hard to wrung out that type of performance from the low cc.

With the 390 though, they had enough capacity to play with. Thus, I don't expect the gearing to be as short as the D200. The 373 cc engine should breathe better.

I've mentioned it earlier on the forum, the only grouse I have with the 390 is its diminutive (thus not so muscular, brawny) looks. I personally think the bike looses a bit of sex appeal due to the diminutive size. If it were just a wee bit beefier, I would have picked it on day one.

BTW, can we get a official KTM slip on exhaust for the D200/390? That can be the first step to make it look beefier. To make it look beefier:

1. Add slip on exhaust. http://shop.ktm.com/com_en/powerpart...ilencer-3.html
2. Handle cowls (looks good I think)
3. Sticker job

Check up the done up Duke 200 in the first pic. Looks good methinks..
http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/first-im...ke-review.html

<Courtesy xbhp>

Last edited by Abhi_Automobile : 28th March 2013 at 16:46.
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Old 28th March 2013, 17:38   #345
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Default re: KTM Duke 390 - 375cc, 45 PS, 150 kg

Look what i found!!

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Its going to be a exciting and Hot (pun intended) April!!
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