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Old 15th April 2013, 18:09   #16
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Congrats for the RD Box on the Maroon Marauder!

Do you find any difference in the Map 1, 2 and 3? Have you tried 4 and 5?

One last question I will ask: When is RD launching a dual channel for the RE 500?

Anurag.
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Old 15th April 2013, 18:38   #17
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Congratulations on the juicebox!
Can you mention the price of the PowerTronics ECU for the Yamaha YZF R-15?
And are there any problems of using the Maps four and five on a stock bike?
How did you order the particular item(Online/Walk-in)?
Will this void warranty on the bike/car if used?(I assume it will)
I was saving up for a Dagrex Exhaust(Because of the promised Mid Range boost and also as I could easily add on, the other Daytona performance enhancers) but I guess this should be the first step(Aftermarket ECU>Aftermarket Intake/Exhaust>....So on).
Any advice/suggestions for my above mentioned dilemma?
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Old 15th April 2013, 21:08   #18
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sajid33 View Post
i own a skoda octavia vrs having a stage 1 remap from superchips, a milltek sports exhaust and a K&N CAI, just wnated to know, can i fit any RD products on top of those mods? would i get a noticeable performance increase? forgive me if my question sounds silly
That's the most sweetest and naive query i ever saw on the forum

Your vRS is already on a remap which in the modification world is supposed to be better than a tuning box.

Basically you can either have a tuning box OR a remap. Not both

Hope this clarifies !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Do you find any difference in the Map 1, 2 and 3? Have you tried 4 and 5?
I briefly used Map 2 to give a demostration to a friend yesterday. Ofcourse, there is a difference between Map 2 and Map 3.

I havent used other maps yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
One last question I will ask: When is RD launching a dual channel for the RE 500?Anurag.
Bullet doesnt come with a turbo fitted so there is no question of having a dual channel box ....Btw, the function of this box is different from the tuning box. These are preset maps unlike the RD box that I have in my Cruze

RD, can you please hightlight exact difference between a DieselTronic & PowerTronic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas View Post
Congratulations on the juicebox!
Can you mention the price of the PowerTronics ECU for the Yamaha YZF R-15?
And are there any problems of using the Maps four and five on a stock bike?
How did you order the particular item(Online/Walk-in)?
Will this void warranty on the bike/car if used?(I assume it will)
I was saving up for a Dagrex Exhaust(Because of the promised Mid Range boost and also as I could easily add on, the other Daytona performance enhancers) but I guess this should be the first step(Aftermarket ECU>Aftermarket Intake/Exhaust>....So on).
Any advice/suggestions for my above mentioned dilemma?
Thanks. My answers to your queries :-

1. Going by RD's standard pricing for box. I assume it's same price even for an R15. However, you can contact them directly for the exact price

2. I got in touch with Chetan from RD and expressed my interest and he sent over the box immediately by courier

3. Yes, Even I assume the warranty will be void post this installation

4. I have no idea about the exhuasts and related performance increment due to its installation. I personally beileve just an exhuast replacement will not give any performance improvement except give you the THUMP of your choice.

I honed down to the specific customized exhuast after listening and riding to various exhuasts over a period of time. I liked how the bike rode and in particular the sound of the exhuast before installing same on my bike. I didnt for once think of any performance gain via. an exhaust change

There are plenty of branded & non-branded exhausts in the market. I recommend you get the one which you like after riding and listening to it and not based on anybody's suggestion or blindly beileve on any particular brand.

My two cents !!!
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Old 15th April 2013, 21:34   #19
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
I have no idea about the exhuasts and related performance increment due to its installation. I personally beileve just an exhuast replacement will not give any performance improvement except give you the THUMP of your choice.

I honed down to the specific customized exhuast after listening and riding to various exhuasts over a period of time. I liked how the bike rode and in particular the sound of the exhuast before installing same on my bike. I didnt for once think of any performance gain via. an exhaust change

There are plenty of branded & non-branded exhausts in the market. I recommend you get the one which you like after riding and listening to it and not based on anybody's suggestion or blindly beileve on any particular brand.
I'm sorry,I should have made this clear in my previous post;I do not own a bullet but a R-15 and the question I'm asking you is whether I should go for the Dagrex/LeoVince(Closest competitors in terms of price) exhaust system or the PowerTronic ECU.
I'm not a huge fan of explosive exhaust noises but want genuine performance increase.
Should I install the ECU first or the Exhaust system?(I can go for just one, at a time)
RD website quotes prices of 10.5K INR and 16K INR for the PowerTronics RS and RR variants respectively, for the R-15.
Since the Dagrex exhaust is at 10K INR and LeoVince at 11-12K INR, I can go with the PowerTronic RS ECU or Exhaust.

BTW,Which variant did you get?
There are two variants for the C5 with the same names as told above.
One with 5 pre-tuned maps(PoTr RS) with a website quoted price of 13K INR
Second, which unlocks ECU for map customizing (PoTr RR) with a website quoted price of 16.5K INR.

Quote:
PowerTRONIC™ is the latest electronic control unit (ECU) from Race Dynamics that is designed for precise engine control of single and dual cylinder gasoline engines .This stand-alone engine control system is available as a universal system or as a plug-in replacement Engine Management System for the Yamaha R15 and Royal Enfield Classic 500. The PowerTRONIC™ can do everything the original ECU can do and much more. Please contact Race Dynamics for further information.

The PowerTRONIC ECU is available in two variants -

PowerTRONIC – RS : Suitable for for most users, ECU is locked with pre-tuned maps.

PowerTRONIC – RR : For advanced users only, ECU is un-locked with full access to tune/map.
Quote:
For Yamaha R15
Price (All Inclusive):
1. RS: MRP Rs.10,500
2. RR: MRP Rs.16,000
3. Classic 500 RS : Rs. 13,000
4. Classic 500 RR : Rs. 16,500
http://racedynamics.in/products/powertronic

Last edited by Patriot_Vishwas : 15th April 2013 at 21:40.
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Old 16th April 2013, 12:12   #20
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Hi Mobike ,

Thats pretty good tech stuff i must say.

Nice bike and i really liked the exhaust. Really curious to know how it sounds as compared to the short bottles

Can you suggest any such mods for non ECU models like STD 350 which would enhance performance like topspeeds etc?

Thanks
Sunny

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team: Please avoid quoting an entire large post. It inconveniences our small screen & mobile readers.

Last edited by .anshuman : 16th April 2013 at 13:03. Reason: See note in post
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Old 16th April 2013, 13:01   #21
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
That's the most sweetest and naive query i ever saw on the forum
Thanks for the compliment , one more question please, i own a 2010 Skoda Laura L&K 2.0 A/T, can any of the RD boxes be fitted to it ? its completely stock as of now. Actually i am confused about the A/T.
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Old 16th April 2013, 18:19   #22
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Thank you mobike008 for a fantastic review!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

Would love to know views of RD here as to why bike's kick start mechnism is disabled and for situations like mentioned above, is refitting the stock ECU the only resolution?
The PowerTRONIC series of engine management systems are built to be compatible with newer generation of single and dual cylinder engines. Some features of this platform

1. The ECU is programmed to start injection and ignition sequence ONLY after 2 revolutions of crankshaft. This is to designed such as to ensure a more secure and stable start sequence.

2. Most modern bikes have electric start only. For the bullet, the problem is one manual kick results in a usable 1 rotation of crank only, hence the ECU does not start injection and ignition sequence. A good swift kick will start the bike though, provided it turns the crank by 2 rotations. In case your starter is not working, options now are (a) plug-in stock ECU (b) Push start [only for those experienced] . Keep in mind both PowerTRONIC and stock ECU will fit together in the Classic 500's fuse box.

3. Software update will be available specific to enfield kick start enabled sometime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
Those extra cables are Serial cables(RS-232C) for connecting to PC.
Yes, the cables are to interface the ECU with the R-tune software, however, you will need to use only the included cables for tuning as any off the shelf generic cable will not work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas View Post
Can you mention the price of the PowerTronics ECU for the Yamaha YZF R-15?
And are there any problems of using the Maps four and five on a stock bike?
Using map 4/5 on a stock bike would not cause any harm, but you would lose throttle response and have lower fuel economy. We recommend you try maps 1-3 and pick the one which best suits your riding style.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
RD, can you please hightlight exact difference between a DieselTronic & PowerTronic?
PowerTRONIC is a standalone replacement ECU taking complete control of the engine. Mapping is extensive, with tests on multiple vehicles, modification and riders. The amount of data to be calibrated is huge compared to piggybacks
Outputs
  • Fuel injection quantity
  • Ignition timing
  • Ignition charge/Dwell time based on battery voltage and rpm
  • Injector open time based on battery voltage
  • Fuel Pump Control
  • Diagnostic Lamp
  • Corrections for transient throttle movement
  • Tachometer Output

Inputs
  • Crankshaft position
  • Engine temperature
  • Manifold air pressure
  • Throttle position
  • Battery voltage
  • Altitude

DieselTRONIC on the other hand is a piggyback, wherein the box sits in between the original ECU and engine and works along with it. Bulk of the work is done by the original ECU with the DieselTRONIC controlling fuel and boost(on dual channel) only as and when required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas View Post
I'm not a huge fan of explosive exhaust noises but want genuine performance increase.
Zigwheels had extensively tested the performance of the R15 with the PowerTronic ecu - the figures are available on their website.

Last edited by Racedynamics : 16th April 2013 at 18:28.
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Old 16th April 2013, 18:58   #23
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
The ECU is programmed to start injection and ignition sequence ONLY after 2 revolutions of crankshaft. This is to designed such as to ensure a more secure and stable start sequence.
Can you please explain this?

Also is the price of the PowerTronic RS ECU for the R-15 INR 10500 MRP?
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Old 16th April 2013, 22:15   #24
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
1. The ECU is programmed to start injection and ignition sequence ONLY after 2 revolutions of crankshaft. This is to designed such as to ensure a more secure and stable start sequence.
Hi,
Two revolutions always, or index mark + one (inlet + compression) revolution?

If one does not switch off the ignition inbetween, will a second kick work?

Where is the UCEs tone ring fitted, crank or cam? Index by extra tooth, or missing tooth? And when is index (ie TDC or BDC)?

Any thoughts on an inexpensive mapped ignition for the UCE (350)? Esp. one which retards the timing to ATDC when starting. (Purely in the interests of preserving the costly and fragile self starter sprag clutch.)

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 17th April 2013, 06:27   #25
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
Two revolutions always, or index mark + one (inlet + compression) revolution?

If one does not switch off the ignition inbetween, will a second kick work?

Where is the UCEs tone ring fitted, crank or cam? Index by extra tooth, or missing tooth? And when is index (ie TDC or BDC)?

Any thoughts on an inexpensive mapped ignition for the UCE (350)? Esp. one which retards the timing to ATDC when starting. (Purely in the interests of preserving the costly and fragile self starter sprag clutch.)

Regards
Sutripta
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas View Post
Can you please explain this?

Also is the price of the PowerTronic RS ECU for the R-15 INR 10500 MRP?
Hello,

On modified engines (especially single cylinder) like those with higher compression ratio and lightened rotating mass (ex.lightened flywheel), the crank signal reference ( usually inductive pickup sensing teeth with some missing or extra tooth/teeth for synchronization) tends to be erratic during cranking, and can be falsely synchronized. Although the startup sequence can be adjusted to a specific application, we chose to go this route to maintain core compatibility within our range of applications spanning from heavy street engines to race engines.

The C5 has a pretty weird crank trigger waveform, its 25 teeth with 1 missing tooth, and the signal is inverted. The missing tooth is recognizable on the negative side of signal. The missing tooth comes close to ignition TDC which makes it more complicated. No cam signal. Manifold pressure is used to determine combustion tdc.

Revolution 1 is to recognize teeth pattern, revolution 2 is to confirm recognized teeth. Our ECUs compute a before, present and after tooth calculations for more precision, rather than a conventional and easier approach before and present for missing gap. Every tooth gap is measured and validated irrespective of rpm. If the crank signal (and cam signal where applicable) is stable (not the case for kick start on bullet), ecu allows start sequence from 400deg of crank revolution. The window is 400deg to 720deg after first recognized tooth.

Existing C5 PowerTRONIC ecus retards timing by upto 30 deg after TDC (dynamically altered) at crank and post crank for the same reason ! A cheap universal programmable ignition is a possibility, but only a decent market size is going to justify manufacturing. Do you think its a sizable market to experiment ?
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Old 17th April 2013, 10:00   #26
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
Hello,

On modified engines (especially single cylinder) like those with higher compression ratio and lightened rotating mass (ex.lightened flywheel), the crank signal reference ( usually inductive pickup sensing teeth with some missing or extra tooth/teeth for synchronization) tends to be erratic during cranking, and can be falsely synchronized. Although the startup sequence can be adjusted to a specific application, we chose to go this route to maintain core compatibility within our range of applications spanning from heavy street engines to race engines.

The C5 has a pretty weird crank trigger waveform, its 25 teeth with 1 missing tooth, and the signal is inverted. The missing tooth is recognizable on the negative side of signal. The missing tooth comes close to ignition TDC which makes it more complicated. No cam signal. Manifold pressure is used to determine combustion tdc.

Revolution 1 is to recognize teeth pattern, revolution 2 is to confirm recognized teeth. Our ECUs compute a before, present and after tooth calculations for more precision, rather than a conventional and easier approach before and present for missing gap. Every tooth gap is measured and validated irrespective of rpm. If the crank signal (and cam signal where applicable) is stable (not the case for kick start on bullet), ecu allows start sequence from 400deg of crank revolution. The window is 400deg to 720deg after first recognized tooth.

Existing C5 PowerTRONIC ecus retards timing by upto 30 deg after TDC (dynamically altered) at crank and post crank for the same reason ! A cheap universal programmable ignition is a possibility, but only a decent market size is going to justify manufacturing. Do you think its a sizable market to experiment ?
Hi

Is it a missing tooth or a wider tooth?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ml#post2550095 (The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!)
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Old 17th April 2013, 12:47   #27
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

@ironhead

You are right about extended tooth. Any unequal spacing on crank teeth can be used for synchronization. With respect to crank signals, the reference to our ecus sensing falling tooth signal as displaced missing tooth information . While there are 24 true teeth, our tuning software indicates this as 25-1 to help users calibrate synchronization for tooth gap by providing a user programmable pre, current and post tooth sensing parameters.

The crank wheel has uniform tooth starts, but uneven tooth ends, hence the displaced/extended signal on negative side.
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Old 17th April 2013, 20:47   #28
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
On modified engines (especially single cylinder) like those with higher compression ratio and lightened rotating mass (ex.lightened flywheel), the crank signal reference ( usually inductive pickup sensing teeth with some missing or extra tooth/teeth for synchronization) tends to be erratic during cranking, and can be falsely synchronized.
Agreed that during startup, signals are widely off the 'textbook' norm, but what is so special about modified engines (other than, if fitted, high energ ignitions)

Quote:
Although the startup sequence can be adjusted to a specific application, we chose to go this route to maintain core compatibility within our range of applications spanning from heavy street engines to race engines.
Understood, and completely agree.
But will the Bulleteer agree? Even Bulleteers who always use the electric start will balk if you tell them they CANT use the kick start.

Quote:
Manifold pressure is used to determine combustion tdc.
Interesting. OT, I would be very wary of a such a sensor!

Quote:
Our ECUs compute a before, present and after tooth calculations for more precision, rather than a conventional and easier approach before and present for missing gap.
Other than selfsatisfaction, does it give any measurable benefit?

Quote:
A cheap universal programmable ignition is a possibility, but only a decent market size is going to justify manufacturing. Do you think its a sizable market to experiment ?
Tough question. If reliable (a given) and economical, I would. But I think without advertised power and/ or economy gains, there might be a paucity of buyers. A lot will depend on its pricing. Lifestyle pricing will not do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron.head View Post
Hi

Is it a missing tooth or a wider tooth?
Depends on perspective.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th April 2013, 06:29   #29
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Agreed that during startup, signals are widely off the 'textbook' norm, but what is so special about modified engines (other than, if fitted, high energ ignitions)
Example - a higher compression engine with low rotating mass like a lightened flywheel has higher rate of change of angular velocity than a stock engine, when say,approaching tdc during compression or post tdc after combustion

Quote:

Understood, and completely agree.
But will the Bulleteer agree? Even Bulleteers who always use the electric start will balk if you tell them they CANT use the kick start.
Like mentioned earlier, software update will be available shortly. The PowerTRONIC series was built around a generic platform where most other applications do not have a kicker like the R15, KTM duke and CBR



Quote:

Interesting. OT, I would be very wary of a such a sensor!


Other than selfsatisfaction, does it give any measurable benefit?
Yes. Precision and better ability to identify events such as detonation, misfire, combustion tdc, noise immunity, etc.



Quote:

Tough question. If reliable (a given) and economical, I would. But I think without advertised power and/ or economy gains, there might be a paucity of buyers. A lot will depend on its pricing. Lifestyle pricing will not do.


Depends on perspective.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th April 2013, 11:08   #30
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Congrats Avi. I'm pleasantly surprised that RaceDynamics makes a juice box for the bull as well.

I met Karthik around 2 years back at Forum Mall by coincidence and he had mentioned to me that they have this juicebox for the ninja 250. Couldn't find any data or performance figures and reviews on the box for the kawi's so didn't add this to my wishlist.

I'm going to keep a keen eye on this thread for updates.

Ride safe.
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