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Old 18th April 2013, 20:50   #31
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Example - a higher compression engine with low rotating mass like a lightened flywheel has higher rate of change of angular velocity than a stock engine, when say,approaching tdc during compression or post tdc after combustion
Hi,
Don't get this t all!
A race engine will accelerate (and decelerate) faster. Should make no real difference to the electronics. If the electronics/ sensors can handle maximum rpm, it should also handle all rpms less than that, irrespective of pulsations/ variations within the cycle. And near TDC/ BDC there is hardly any piston movement wrt crank.

Re: Ignition system for the UCE 350 - Why don't you take a poll to find out how many Bullet owners will buy a ignition system designed to protect the sprag clutch? The main stumbling block I see for production is the TPS.

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Old 18th April 2013, 21:22   #32
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Congrats. Do you notice any difference in the top end with the default map you are using? I do not want to compromise top end. The low and mid range is quite good in CBR 250.

I am happy to know that smoothness of the vehicle has improved.

I will be watching this thread closely.
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Old 18th April 2013, 21:57   #33
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
Don't get this t all!
A race engine will accelerate (and decelerate) faster. Should make no real difference to the electronics. If the electronics/ sensors can handle maximum rpm, it should also handle all rpms less than that, irrespective of pulsations/ variations within the cycle. And near TDC/ BDC there is hardly any piston movement wrt crank.

Re: Ignition system for the UCE 350 - Why don't you take a poll to find out how many Bullet owners will buy a ignition system designed to protect the sprag clutch? The main stumbling block I see for production is the TPS.

Regards
Sutripta
In relation to why our ecus need 2 crank rotations and what is different about modified engines, the above mentioned is the reason. One crank cycle to check, and the next to confirm and initiate start phase. From the time of start, min 400deg to 720deg of crank rotation is what it needs. Takes into account all dynamic variations that occur with different types of engines with different states of tune with different signals and with different characteristics.

Perhaps you got our explanation wrong. Electronics capable of 20k+ rpm is not of concern (PowerTRONIC architecture is capable of 20k+RPM) here but the fact that complete access is given out to the user to calibrate critical parameters, which if wrongly set can be a problem. We can go overboard and provide multiple sync calibration curves for just starting the bullet, but that would make what is already complex extremely difficult to deal with for an end user, wouldn't it ?

The current platform is meant to make it easy for the end user to get a basic touch of electronic tuning, using our documentation the easiest way was this. What you learn, experience and understand with the bullet applies to other engines using PowerTRONIC. Either which ways, we might have an update available.

Will probably post some interesting data on the subject on another thread, might have already made this boring to many with the tech talk
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Old 19th April 2013, 16:16   #34
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

The Royal Enfield being the tough bike that it has always been since a very long time amazes to be practically compliant to the current market additions that are to the various riders liking and comfort. Kudos to this post and the newer RE bike generations that are coming up
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Old 19th April 2013, 20:54   #35
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Originally Posted by Racedynamics View Post
In relation to why our ecus need 2 crank rotations and what is different about modified engines, the above mentioned is the reason. One crank cycle to check, and the next to confirm and initiate start phase. From the time of start, min 400deg to 720deg of crank rotation is what it needs. Takes into account all dynamic variations that occur with different types of engines with different states of tune with different signals and with different characteristics.

Perhaps you got our explanation wrong.
I thought you were explaining why initial sync is more difficult in a (lightened) race engine. Still at sea regarding that!

Quote:
but that would make what is already complex extremely difficult to deal with for an end user, wouldn't it ?

The current platform is meant to make it easy for the end user to get a basic touch of electronic tuning, using our documentation the easiest way was this.
You are giving end users access into your system?! Though I laud the sentiment (at last an Indian Megasquirt!) IMO, you are asking for trouble!

Quote:
Will probably post some interesting data on the subject on another thread, might have already made this boring to many with the tech talk
Please do. That would be great.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 20th April 2013, 14:40   #36
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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You are giving end users access into your system?! Though I laud the sentiment (at last an Indian Megasquirt!) IMO, you are asking for trouble!
Most of our ECUs since 2005 have user accessibility. The ECUs are read locked only in cases where further changes on tuning takes the engine beyond optimal limits or when someone has to safeguard their map. Not only that, we have trained many on the basics of tuning.
Comparison to another brand is like apples to oranges, totally different tech, concepts and principles
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Old 21st April 2013, 12:38   #37
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

This thread now has my attention. I never thought we would have this product for a bullet !

Do you have a setup in Mumbai ?

Where do I courier the cheque to
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Old 22nd April 2013, 15:29   #38
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Do you have a setup in Mumbai ?
Please contact Racedynamics directly for more information on that aspect

I rode the bike little more extensively over the last few days and did some open road/highway type of riding and noticed the bike stutters at some speeds ( not low speeds though)

I havent made a note of which speeds it stutters and there is a little bit of jerk and then it resumes smoothly but, it's happened more than a few times now and experiencing it for first time

Any inputs what could be going wrong here?
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Old 22nd April 2013, 20:13   #39
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Comparison to another brand is like apples to oranges, totally different tech, concepts and principles
Hi,
Was not comparing products, but a (rare) spinoff/ end result:- education!

What level of documentation do you provide?

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Old 22nd April 2013, 21:14   #40
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
What you'll like :-

3. Increased power, Improved driveability & Better Low-end torque

What you wont :-

2. No proven data of increase in performance namely ( 0-100kmph, In-gear Performance etc...)
Doesn't this sound a little contrary? So how do I know there's increased power without the data in performance?
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Old 23rd April 2013, 12:13   #41
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Doesn't this sound a little contrary? So how do I know there's increased power without the data in performance?
In what way does it sound contrary? My point was RD should have made some performance figures official, that's all

If you ride your bike daily you will immediately know the increase in power and torque after fitting the box compared to stock version.

Same goes for RD box fitted to a car. You can immediately notice the power difference in P1 and P2 mode but, neither me nor many other users have actually tested it using a Vbox so does it mean the performance is not improved?

Last edited by mobike008 : 24th April 2013 at 10:57.
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Old 24th April 2013, 00:05   #42
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
In what way does it sound contrary? My point was RD should have made some performance figures official, that's all
OK

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If you drive your bike
RIDE

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so does it mean the performance is not improved?
May be I'm old fashioned because I prefer an output from dynometer than the feel from so many users
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Old 19th July 2013, 02:21   #43
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Hi,

How is the RD unit performing on your Classic 500? Can you share your overall review sofar?

Thank You

Cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
In what way does it sound contrary? My point was RD should have made some performance figures official, that's all

If you ride your bike daily you will immediately know the increase in power and torque after fitting the box compared to stock version.

Same goes for RD box fitted to a car. You can immediately notice the power difference in P1 and P2 mode but, neither me nor many other users have actually tested it using a Vbox so does it mean the performance is not improved?
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Old 19th July 2013, 09:25   #44
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Did you find any significant improvement in the top end? How much have you timed your bike at (you can PM me if the forum rules do not allow a number)? Have you used a gun or GPS or are speeds speedo indicated?
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Old 19th July 2013, 15:44   #45
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Default Re: RE Classic 500 (Race Dynamics Fitted) : First BULL on Team-BHP!

Intresesting thread!

A few of my customers have fitted race dynamics ECU.I have nothing against aftermarket ecu's or piggyback boxes but i thought i would share what I know as it is better to know the pros and cons of using these products.

RD seems to be a reasonably well made product, but as a somebody who has been around bikes for a bit I think there are a few more important things to consider.

The engine on most c5's will be very close to stock, so no real improvement in VE by way of increased cam lift or duartion, hi compression piston,larger valves etc.

For a real increase in hp we would really need to increase VE and rpm, please remember we are talking about a single cylinder motorcycle here with a very low peak rpm.

So in this case the only thing we can really play around with to increase hp marginally is to add more fuel by increasing pulse width of the injector.You can compare it to playing around with the jetting on your stock carb.

Ofcourse change in igniton lead plays its part due to change in burn rate at diffrent throttle angles etc, you can call it housekeeping, its all to aid the most efficient burn to produce peak pressure at the right crank angle ATDC

I would think the guys at RD built custom maps for the c5 while running the bike on a dyno.

The problem with generic maps (read map 1,2,3 etc)is the maps they build might be bang on but are custom maps for the bike they ran on the dyno.Simply put the map is for a given setup at a given altitude and fuel,how good the tuner was plays a part too.

E.g the OE ecu on the C5 is mapped with stock air filter and exhaust, if one was to change the exhaust to say a goldstar it would have the effect of slightly improved Ve at a particular RPM where cylinder filling was improved due to reduced back pressure and improved scavenging effect.This would mean the increased air ingested by the engine would cause the bike to run lean at that particular rpm,vice versa it could also run rich at other rpms.running rich is definitely not good but running lean is far worse.Remeber the ecu is not really measuring the volume of air flowing through the engine its just looking at the data allready stored in maps for a particular sensor input.

This is a very real issue and is the reason companies like harley and triumph for e.g sell map upgrades for bolt on exhaust sytstems sold by them.It is also the reason a carburated bike needs to be jetted after a exhaust and airfilter upgrade.

If the motorycle is futher modified with after market exhaust system etc which is even more free flowing like a megaphone for example or vance and hines for harley,the only option is to fit something like a PC5 and download the map for your model of bike.

Remember how powerful or fast the bike feels is a very inacurate way to test, you need hard data to really tell you that your now fast feeling and probably loud bike is running dangerously lean at a particular rpm and is close to overheating and detonation, yes i know a lot of ecu's have knock sensing or look at CT and will retard igniton but then whats the point?there goes your hp gain.

Though a lot of people are running around with generic maps on there PC5's or in the Indian arena a RD ecu, these would be considered just a base map due to the obove mentioned reasons by most serious tuners, due to fact that the map might not be a perfect fit for your setup.

The only real way to get it spot on sadly is to setup your motorcycle with all the intended upgrades (or downgrades depends on how you look at it) like a air filter, exhaust,cams etc and use the loaded map to run it on the dyno and build a custom map for your particluar setup.This is done by looking at the AFR via a wideband lambda probe/sniffer inserted into the exhaust and checking how rich or lean it is through the rev range untill the bike comes on the limiter.

This way the tuner can see at what rpm the bike is running too rich or too lean and adjust the AFR by adding or reducing injector pulse width to give you a nice smooth power and torque curve with not too many spikes and hopefully a HP gain.

To sum it up, an aftermarket ecu which can be tuned or has different maps, is not really going to work perfectly due to the fact we have no way of testing which one is in the ballpark region of our engine requirements until dyno's are more accesible in india.

Another thing , running your bike on a test roller with no aerodynmic drag and claiming it does 25kph more than stock is a waste of time.

Last edited by motocamp : 19th July 2013 at 15:48.
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