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Old 21st February 2014, 01:25   #2041
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by VW2010 View Post
Design flaw? How did you arrive at that? Though its exactly the same why i arrived at user error, but the number of instance and number of people reporting is not really a sample size. Secondly what have these owners done to prove its a flaw in design.

If its a design flaw, wouldnt it be bothering 95% of the bike and not the 2-3% of the bike from the number of people complaining here. I am just taking a % based on the number of owners and number of complaints here.

I do not think its a design flaw. A design flaw means every bike from production will have this issues. Call it a unlucky lime, may be i will agree. Its not design flaw.
Some random thoughts.

Let's not get caught in semantics here. The Duke 390 shutting off like that is a recipe for disaster, and Bajaj Auto/KTM better address it. We don't want anyone to get killed, do we? With most Duke riders riding like the way they do, someone's going to get hurt if this conking off happens at crucial moments.

And this whole theory about rider error doesn't seem like it, considering the riding experience of some of the folks who've been having this issue. Team-BHP, although representative of a variegated sample of India, remains a microcosm largely restricted to the 25-44 demography with a college degree. We all know that India's bigger with scores of non-forumers out there who might be having similar issues, more so if such a small sample size on Team-BHP is consistently reporting the issue.

In the automotive world, the first issues reported are overlooked as user error. If a few more field issues are reported, then the failure analysis boys come in to see whether the part is ok. If it isn't, the QC guys face the fire in and usually lean on the "one-off incident" initially. Once this "one off" kills or disrupts something major, recalls, hushed or otherwise, are issued. The process takes time, especially in Indian companies where "disagreeing with seniors" and taking a different stand isn't appreciated.

Secondly, the onus is on the manufacturer to investigate and resolve the issue, not ask the owner to prove that it's happening. Who're the experts here, the bike maker(s) or the owners?

Flashback time:

Goa 2009. An LB 350 rider died. Cause: Overtaking a bus on the Panjim Ponda highway, bike shuts off in the middle of the manouver. Tipper coming straight ahead hits the biker. Spot out.

Fault: Loose contact in the ignition switch mechanism. I used to own an LB500 back then. And I had exactly the same issue, but by the big man's grace got away without anything major. I know how it feels when you're stuck with no power bang in the middle of some manouver.

It used to happen randomly. The vibes of the LB500 used to tick off the contact on the ignition key and my Bull was one of the smoother ones built. On an evening after work, I was out doing a plug chop near Dehu road. Suddenly, I lose power while climbing and everything goes off. No horn, nothing. Replace the fuse. Nothing. Then suddenly, the LB500 springs to life after turning the key on and off for a few times.

Oh yes, it isn't a design fault but poor QC? Why can't Bajaj/KTM be stuck with a similar issue (RE ignition switch) here. While I'd agree that they're a light year better than Royal Enfield, poor QC can definitely be a cause considering the fact that the Duke is built to a tight price.

BAL doesn't take lightly to criticism. Wonder why they call their recalls, "routine product improvement" and such assorted bull poop? Yeah, so an Indian company jumping up and doing a voluntary recall/fix isn't very likely. Pressure must be built and hell must be raised for the aam-aadmi's voice to be heard.

PS: The chap who died apparently knew about this issue but thought that he'd fix it later cos his bull had never shut down at large throttle openings/higher speeds. Sad but true.

Thank you for your time.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 21st February 2014, 07:52   #2042
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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post

No worries mate! The fuel tank capacity was one of the first points that were raised.. Forgot to mention it in the previous post. We were asked for an ideal tank range we expected the average range figure as per everyone was around 350kms before hitting the LF indicator.

Also among the discussed were inadequate headlamp beam spread, option for spoke rims with tubeless tires, slightly more rear set pillion grab rails etc.
Just a thought but how about a softer ride?!

I know the D200 & D390 are hooligans but the back bone jarring ride upsets the fun. It is like the bikes were made for track days only and not regular commuting. Just my opinion.

Anurag.
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Old 21st February 2014, 08:18   #2043
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Just a thought but how about a softer ride?! I know the D200 & D390 are hooligans but the back bone jarring ride upsets the fun. It is like the bikes were made for track days only and not regular commuting. Just my opinion. Anurag.
You can opt for the power parts seat and set your bike suspension in the softest setting for that ...
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Old 21st February 2014, 09:55   #2044
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Just a thought but how about a softer ride?!

I know the D200 & D390 are hooligans but the back bone jarring ride upsets the fun. It is like the bikes were made for track days only and not regular commuting. Just my opinion.

Anurag.
Nah. Nobody mentioned about the suspension as it would take away a chunk of fun in corners. Actually, I joined a bit late into the discussion. Not sure if anyone mentioned it before. But throughout the discussion, everyone was content with the nature of the 390 except the tank range, pillion seat and other tidbits mentioned before.

But I did mention about a long travel and soft suspension as a part of my wishlist for my dream dual-sport.
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Old 21st February 2014, 10:56   #2045
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

Quote:
Fault: Loose contact in the ignition switch mechanism. I used to own an LB500 back then. And I had exactly the same issue, but by the big man's grace got away without anything major. I know how it feels when you're stuck with no power bang in the middle of some manouver.
Sorry for the OT, but in my 30k kms of ownership of a LB mach 350 (now sold), i had to replace the ignition switch 4 times.. :( the worst part is after the replacement, u got to carry 2 keys, one for ignition, one for everything else.. unless replace the whole set costing 3.5K. On my C5, i am currently running on the 3rd ignition switch. Some companies just dont listen.. :(

I was one of them reporting very frequent stalling of the 390, which was located to a broken battery terminal. Even after fixing the issue, the bike is stalled a few times. twice, it was something like 3 gear moving at 40kmpl, leave the accelerator, press the clutch and the engine just died.

Been using my 390 for office commuting everyday which is approx 48 kms to and fro. Odo reads approx 5k. Enjoying every bit of it. look forward to the time i spend on road with the bike everyday. Although i wear riding gear, and keep my light on even during the day, the speed which 390 generates is a bit scary. People are still not used to fast bikes around, and once in a while, i come across a situation where the heart skips a bit.
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Old 21st February 2014, 11:33   #2046
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by nasirkaka View Post
Some companies just dont listen..
What do you say to a live, unsheilded wire which was part of the wiring loom sitting under the fuel tank? Bluu's (handle) LB500 had this and his bike was like a year old. Could never figure out why he kept blowing fuses. Service center said they have addressed the issue. He once went through a box full of fuses to make it back home on a 500km ride. Sent the bike to a local Enfield garage. Issue fixed. Another year down the line, Bluu sold the bike due to a train of unending issues.

With an Enfield, you have to put up with all of it with next to no response or accountability from the company. You are in a much better place with Bajaj/KTM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasirkaka View Post
Enjoying every bit of it. the speed which 390 generates is a bit scary.
I have started using my bike to work too. I do around the same distance. The 390 is a riot on wheels. I tend to ride dangerous sometimes. Don't know how to correct this. I feel like riding fast, all the time.
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Old 21st February 2014, 11:42   #2047
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by nasirkaka View Post
I was one of them reporting very frequent stalling of the 390, which was located to a broken battery terminal. Even after fixing the issue, the bike is stalled a few times. twice, it was something like 3 gear moving at 40kmpl, leave the accelerator, press the clutch and the engine just died.
IIRC, a very similar kind of issue was reported for the CBR250R too in one of the international forums. I will try to dig up the thread. There the engine cut off happened while rolling off the throttle and depressing the clutch for a downshift . There was even a video of a guy demonstrating it.

[EDIT] Here is the link to the thread in cbr250.net
http://www.cbr250.net/forum/cbr250-p...nshifting.html

[EDIT2] After a quick glance at the mentioned thread, I think even Honda has not rectified this stalling issue of the CBR.

Last edited by man_of_steel : 21st February 2014 at 11:55.
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Old 21st February 2014, 12:38   #2048
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

From Man_of_steel's link:

"I think it is related to the decel fuel shut off feature that all modern fuel injected engines have. Fuel injection is shut off any time the rpms are above a certain value and the throttle is closed, and starts again when the rpms drop below a set value such as 2000 rpm. The start up of injection sometimes isn't catching it in time. Or, the "rest" setting of the idle air valve is too low. Honda would need to flash the fuel computer with a safer map rpm value for the beginning of injection to fix it or maybe change the idle air valve or both. This is a big ask for any automotive company as any changes to fuel control will require recertifying the emissions. "

THat, right there, seems to identify the cause & the reason for reluctance to fix it. Of course, it is beyond my capability to validate what is said there. Sounds reasonable/ plausible

Last edited by sridhu : 21st February 2014 at 12:40.
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Old 21st February 2014, 13:14   #2049
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
From Man_of_steel's link:

"I think it is related to the decel fuel shut off feature that all modern fuel injected engines have. Fuel injection is shut off any time the rpms are above a certain value and the throttle is closed, and starts again when the rpms drop below a set value such as 2000 rpm. The start up of injection sometimes isn't catching it in time. Or, the "rest" setting of the idle air valve is too low. Honda would need to flash the fuel computer with a safer map rpm value for the beginning of injection to fix it or maybe change the idle air valve or both. This is a big ask for any automotive company as any changes to fuel control will require recertifying the emissions. "

THat, right there, seems to identify the cause & the reason for reluctance to fix it. Of course, it is beyond my capability to validate what is said there. Sounds reasonable/ plausible
Continuing along Sridhu's find, I bumped on to this thread. Here they are talking about a similar stalling problem but is rectified by just adding more fuel to the low end rev range as they are talking about custom maps.

Link: http://www.1130cc.com/forums/archive...p/t-58917.html

Problem
Quote:
This happens to me every once in a while and I was wondering if someone had an idea. After a hard decel, the engine would stall out once I put the clutch in at zero throttle. I am using PC III and CFR with a custom tuned mapping. Any help is appreciated.
Solution
Quote:
Yes, add more fuel in the 1500 - 2500 RPM range at 0% throttle. The motor needs a lot of fuel to prevent a stall and lots of tuners lean that area out too much.
Quote:
I just added more fuel in the 0% throttle range from 1500-5500 rpm and now it never stalls or pops even if you take it to the rev limiter and let off.
The issue in question here goes in the similar lines as the 390 I guess. And it makes a bit of sense as the 390 has not so great low end fuelling before 4k RPM.

Last edited by man_of_steel : 21st February 2014 at 13:17.
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Old 21st February 2014, 13:21   #2050
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
The issue in question here goes in the similar lines as the 390 I guess. And it makes a bit of sense as the 390 has not so great low end fuelling before 4k RPM.
You are re-supposing the issue is fueling and not electrical.

Either way, it should not be too difficult to ensure that at least enough fuel is at al times available to the engine so that it does not shut off.

If a simple old tech carb can manage that with the pilot circuit, there is no reason for a high tech cutting edge KTM fuel injected single not to be able to ensure that.

But hopefully this time without neutering the bike.
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Old 21st February 2014, 13:32   #2051
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
You are re-supposing the issue is fueling and not electrical.

Either way, it should not be too difficult to ensure that at least enough fuel is at al times available to the engine so that it does not shut off.

If a simple old tech carb can manage that with the pilot circuit, there is no reason for a high tech cutting edge KTM fuel injected single not to be able to ensure that.

But hopefully this time without neutering the bike.
IF the issue is in similar lines, the issue could be sorted with just an update of fuel map. OR this issue should not be popping up on a piggy back ECU equipped bike. I believe somebody is having RD ECU here. I believe it was Psycho..?
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Old 21st February 2014, 13:53   #2052
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
IF the issue is in similar lines, the issue could be sorted with just an update of fuel map. OR this issue should not be popping up on a piggy back ECU equipped bike. I believe somebody is having RD ECU here. I believe it was Psycho..?
The way I see it, this happened to me a few times too under exactly the same set of circumstances (clutching, downshifting, coasting to a stop) when I first got the 390. But once I got used to the throttle and the clutch, it never happened again. Not once in 3000 kms. Just saying. Not denying or refuting that others could be having a genuine issue.
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Old 21st February 2014, 14:37   #2053
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

Quote:
"I think it is related to the decel fuel shut off feature that all modern fuel injected engines have. Fuel injection is shut off any time the rpms are above a certain value and the throttle is closed, and starts again when the rpms drop below a set value such as 2000 rpm. The start up of injection sometimes isn't catching it in time. Or, the "rest" setting of the idle air valve is too low. Honda would need to flash the fuel computer with a safer map rpm value for the beginning of injection to fix it or maybe change the idle air valve or both. This is a big ask for any automotive company as any changes to fuel control will require recertifying the emissions. "
Drawing a parallel, my C5 (fuel injected, the very first lot) would also at times shut off in a similar fashion. Coming to think of it, i was more worried during those days, then with KTM, as the frequency of stalls were much higher with the C5. Some new maps were developed, and my bike was used as one of the guinea to test those maps out. injectors, throttle body, etc where replaced with no positive results. The tbhp C5 ownership thread's initial pages have many people with similar complains. Bangalore was one of the cities with highest number of stalling and jerking issues, so the revised maps were being tested at bangalore (climate?)
i am not much in touch with the latest breed from RE stable to comment on if the issue is been rectified. For my bike, i replaced the entire EFI system with a carburetor and all the related problems were solved. did not have any issue for the last 20k kms after installing the carb, except a slight lag in throttle response, which can be lived with compared to bike stalling at some critical moment.
Still not sure if the stalling is a result of fueling or electricals, but on my C5, it was completely eliminated after shifting to carb.
Dont think thats the options with 390.
(have heard one guy is converted his 390 to carburettor system in pune, source a local mechanic in bangalore. Not sure though)

Last edited by nasirkaka : 21st February 2014 at 14:41.
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Old 21st February 2014, 16:38   #2054
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

Motoroids have spotted Bajaj Pulsar 400SS & KTM RC390 testing together in Pune. Here are the pics:

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Old 21st February 2014, 18:59   #2055
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Default re: The KTM Duke 390 Ownership Experience Thread

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
The way I see it, this happened to me a few times too under exactly the same set of circumstances (clutching, downshifting, coasting to a stop) when I first got the 390. But once I got used to the throttle and the clutch, it never happened again. Not once in 3000 kms. Just saying. Not denying or refuting that others could be having a genuine issue.
Exactly! Everyone who has reported this issue has also acknowledged that keeping the throttle open is the work around for this.

Sometime back I had posted on this topic in the same thread.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ml#post3342892
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