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Old 31st July 2013, 20:43   #1
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Smile Project: Speed Run Motorcycle

Hello there bhpians! This being my first thread on T-bhp, I wanted it to be something really good (I hope so). Just a brief intro - I'm a student at MIT, Manipal. I've just completed my B.E in Automobile engineering.

The idea for this project first came up during one extremely boring lecture during my 6th semester of college while discussing the movie "The fastest Indian" (Nice way to spend a lecture, yes). Fast forward to the 8th semester where we had to do a final project and this idea popped up into our heads. So after a quick discussion with a couple of professors we decided to push on with the project.

Initially we did quite a lot of research, The book "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design" was our primary reference. We've cannibalized an apache 180 rtr for the purpose of this project. The donor bike belongs to the said friend of mine. So after getting a couple more interested batch mates we jumped right into it.

Phase 1

This was the planning phase where we decided on a few core aspects of the frame we were about to design.

• Rake angle-35 degrees

• Wheel base-1.6 metre's

• Hardtail

• Mild steel frame

We assumed that with the extreme rake angle the motorcycle would have high straight line stability at medium to high speeds. Hardtail was chosen since the idea was to run it on extremely flat surfaces with the additional benefit of simplicity in design.

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Phase 2

This is where we started stripping the donor bike of all the components which we required.And what a pain that was. Especially during the removal of the engine mounts,stripped nuts were an absolute nightmare for us. Atleast we learned a lot on how to use a hammer and chisel

For the helping with the building of the frame,we took assistance from a person who modifies bikes in mangalore. The whole experience quite an eye opener for us, I can now understand the kind of work and effort that goes into building any type. The kind of delays which were made and the blunders made during the construction of the frame (Both on our part and his part) set us back quite a bit. Finally we completed the frame with all the bits and pieces bolted onto it.

During this phase we got the engine rebored.We got the bore increased from 62.5 mm to 65.5 mm. The piston used was from a Hero Karizma. In accordance with our calculations we found out that the total displacement increased to approx 195cc (194.77).

Stripped apache
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Jig for frame construction
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Rake angle measurement thingy
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Basic frame with wheels and handlebar attached
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Lapped cylinder head
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Karizma Piston
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Phase 3

For us this was where we faced most hardship. As soon as we got it back to our workshop the problems started.The initial block was the wiring which we could sort out within a day.However,we noticed that there was absolutely no compression in the engine. So we had to take the bike to the TVS service centre in Udupi where the mechanic said that the valve timing was not correct since the TVS folks at TVS Mangalore hadn't set it right. Also the piston was hitting the spark plug slightly . So after all this we finally got the bike running. And what a beast it sounded like

We had to increase the size of the main jet needle in the carb since it seemed to be slightly choked. After removing the needle we used a steel cable and inserted it into the needle so as to increase its diameter bit by bit. It was somewhat of a trial and error method since we couldn't find a larger main jet needle.

Finally we got the bike up and running. However we still had to build the aerodynamic shell around the bike for which we had required to weld a skeleton to the structure, we couldn't find anyone who could help us in fabrication of the skeleton. Already cash strapped and short on time (we exceeded the submission date by almost a month), we ultimately decided to submit the project as is. It was on a very dejected mood that we finally submitted the project

This is a final pic of the completed bike

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Impressions

I've just ridden the bike once. It was quite scary. It must have been due to the fact that my knees were so close to the ground. Quite difficult to turn courtesy of the extreme rake angle. Also since we designed the bike around our primary rider. Its not very comfortable if not downright impossible for a person of above 5'8 to ride it. Due to safety reasons and because we didn't have any long stretches of flat roads we couldn't take it on extended test runs. Just did a couple of runs on the roads at midnight. Since our ground clearance is about 3 inches it couldn't go over the tiniest of potholes (It wasn't what we designed it for lol)

Our professors were quite impressed however I don't think they understand the idea of a speed run motorbike. They were bombarding us with questions on the where the pillion rider might sit and comfort and so on

We plan to resume the work on the motorbike once we get a bit of free time. The motorcycle fairing would be the next. Also a couple more bits and pieces that we couldn't do such as a taller gearing, a tuned exhaust etc.

Also anyone who could help with any details on the if its possible to enroll this motorbike in any speed run events (the criteria and what all has to be done).

I do know that it might look slightly shoddy, we still have a long way to go and lots of room for improvement.

Comments and criticisms are welcome!

Couple of videos:





Regards

B O V

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd August 2013 at 02:13. Reason: Cleaning up punctuation.
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Old 31st July 2013, 21:48   #2
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

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Originally Posted by B O V View Post
Also anyone who could help with any details on the if its possible to enroll this motorbike in any speed run events(the criteria and what all has to be done).
You can probably try the speed test at Rann of Kutch

You'll also need GPS or a speed gun to measure the true speed of the motorcycle.
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Old 31st July 2013, 22:11   #3
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Brilliant Project & looks like a pretty decent execution as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by B O V View Post
Our professors were quite impressed however I don't think they understand the idea of a speed run motorbike.They were bombarding us with questions on the where the pillion rider might sit and comfort and so on
When will the Professors be aware of these things

Quote:
Originally Posted by B O V View Post
We plan to resume the work on the motorbike once we get a bit of free time.The motorcycle fairing would be the next.Also a couple more bits and pieces that we couldn't do such as a taller gearing,a tuned exhaust etc.

I do know that it might look slightly shoddy,We still have a long way to go and lots of room for improvement.

Comments and criticisms are welcome

Regards

B O V
Couple of Questions

- Why taller gearing if this is a Drag Bike?
- What was the decision process behind choosing a 4Stroke engine especially the RTR, I mean why not a ZMA?
- why did you guys not pick up a a RX100/135 2St engine? Best would have been an RD350 but I understand sourcing parts & good engine could have been an issue
- The Front Suspension rods look too close to the rider's Face/helmet, you should try to fix that.
- Any plans to use a programmable CDI? Should help you immensely in fine tuning the engine.

At the end Kudos to you guys for doing this.
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Old 31st July 2013, 23:33   #4
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Quote:
You can probably try the speed test at Rann of Kutch
Seems quite far.Since we are situated in the south.I've heard of some sort of track in bangalore.

Quote:
Why taller gearing if this is a Drag Bike?
Drag bikes have the requirement that they need to run the quarter mile in the least possible time.What we have kept in mind was the idea of a speed run bike ie getting the maximum possible top speed from the given motorcycle.However we had calculated the required gear ratios for both tall and short gearings,should the need arise.

Quote:
What was the decision process behind choosing a 4Stroke engine especially the RTR, I mean why not a ZMA?,why did you guys not pick up a a RX100/135 2St engine? Best would have been an RD350 but I understand sourcing parts & good engine could have been an issue
The thing is that the donor bike belonged to one of the project mates.So for us it saved quite a bit of money.

Quote:
The Front Suspension rods look too close to the rider's Face/helmet, you should try to fix that
Yep,that's a design flaw on our part.We will find a way around it.
Quote:
Any plans to use a programmable CDI? Should help you immensely in fine tuning the engine
We had plans to put in a cdi as well as high lift cams.But by the time we reached this stage we had exceeded our budget.

Thank you very much for the suggestions
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Old 1st August 2013, 07:22   #5
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Reminds me of the Burt Munro's efforts, in the World's Fastest Indian.

Keep up the effort, and you might end up with good results. Steering the bike is anyway not a priority, since you only need to go in a straight line. So, the lesser the handle moves about, the better.What's the kind of speed you guys are trying to achieve?, if I may ask?

All the Best with your future efforts
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Old 1st August 2013, 11:46   #6
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Quote:
Reminds me of the Burt Munro's efforts, in the World's Fastest Indian
Yep.It's what actually inspired us
Quote:
What's the kind of speed you guys are trying to achieve?, if I may ask?
It might sound very vague since we have no idea what to expect from this bike.In our discussions.On completion of the aerodynamic kit we were hoping to crack 130 Km/h,at the very least.

Thank you
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Old 1st August 2013, 14:34   #7
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Let me start by congratulating you guys on the work so far. Brilliant job. The design cues remind me partly of the Batpod and partly of Drag Legend Elmer Trett's Bike. Love the way the handle bars are placed so low, though i believe the forks are pretty close to the rider's face. The chassis design is brilliant and i believe will help a lot to keep the mass very low and aerodynamic, helping you achieve less drag and better high speed. Even i was wondering why you guys went for a Apache engine and not something like the ZMA or P220. But your reasoning was spot on. By the way Enfield engines do have more torque and ofcourse the displacement is more and i guess is easily available also in the second-hand market. That can be a good option(i might be wrong because i am unaware of the exact technicalities.). Anyways will be hooked to this thread. Hoping for consistent working and do keep us updated.
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Old 1st August 2013, 14:56   #8
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Amazing work man. I don't know if you know any Suhailjeet Singh in from your Automobile batch but he frequently mentioned your project. Really like the thought process that has gone into the build, the CAD model to the final build... really amazing. I had built a chopper bicycle for my final year project so I can understand what you faced from your professors and I even understand how much we care about that .

Anyways great going, good to see you and your work on T-Bhp, waiting for the body and the final look! Just a couple of suggestions:
1. Now that the projects done and you're looking to get into drag races you should probably get a more powerful engine. I know you might be short on budget but of what I have seen in most of the drag races, stripped naked pulsars and cafe raced RD350s you need to power up just a little bit more.
2. Even though you've identified the face being to close to T-arm mistake, I'd say you make that the priority in terms of changes to make as most races will have safety regulations and checks and being a dragster, safety should be a primary concern.
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Old 1st August 2013, 17:30   #9
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Hello BOV

Nice project and good thread too. I hope you win some speed runs on it.

Also, I wanted to thank you sincerely for not cannibalizing any 2 stroke bikes - read RX, RD etc. - for your project.
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Old 1st August 2013, 17:32   #10
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Hey DOV,
Great Job.

A few questions and suggestions:

1. What is the material of the tubes used? was the frame Analysed for stresses and strength using FEA? correct me if i'm wrong, but the silver colored tubing seems to be GI pipe used for plumbing.

2.You might get rid of the front brakes as rear brakes would be enough, and the weight saved by removing the front calipers, rotors, plumbing, lever would be substantial. Although it wont help much with the top-speed, it would definitely help you get there faster.

(i know you have submitted your project, but just saying )

3. I think it should easily be able to crack a 100 miles per hour (160 kmph) with taller gearing and an aerodynamic fairing and a bit more work.
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Old 1st August 2013, 18:08   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viju View Post
Hello BOV

Nice project and good thread too. I hope you win some speed runs on it.

Also, I wanted to thank you sincerely for not cannibalizing any 2 stroke bikes - read RX, RD etc. - for your project.
What's wrong with 2 strokes? Apart from the emissions. I was about to start off a RX135 cafe racer project.
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Old 1st August 2013, 20:12   #12
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Quote:
By the way Enfield engines do have more torque and ofcourse the displacement is more
Ah well Enfield engines(Make no mistake,I love Royal Enfields,I own an '83 Bullet Deluxe) I'm not a fan of the use of RE engines(yes,the UCE mill) for such purposes since I believe that they are limited by their design,even though its been a vast improvement over the older engines.I would prefer to use a lighter more modern engine for this use.I'm also aware of a person who does use a modified RE which is supercharged? for speed runs.This is just my point of view.

Regards

Quote:
Amazing work man...safety should be a primary concern
Yes I do know Suhail quite well.My classmate actually.To answer some of your questions.

*We wanted to see what kind of speeds we could achieve with this motor in hand,with a few modifications ofcourse.The primary way that we hoped to achieve these speeds was with use of such streamliner's since the lower drag would help us reach high top speeds.

*We actually didn't realise how big of a safety concern the t-stem would turn out to be.Yes it is something we will rectify once we restart the work.

Thank you very much for the suggestions and appreciation

Quote:
Also, I wanted to thank you sincerely for not cannibalizing any 2 stroke bikes - read RX, RD etc. - for your project.
I think I understand your sentiments.Even I feel it would be sacrilegious to strip apart any two stroke unless for restoration.

Thanks for the encouragement

Quote:
DOV... suggestions
B O V

*We did do a static stress analysis using ansys with which we could get a very vague idea on where the stress was concentrated,however we couldn't do any actual analysis.
We used B class mild steel with 32 mm tubes of thickness 3mm.I'm afraid I do not understand what you meant by GI plumbing

*Ah we hadn't thought of that,thank you.So just the rear brakes would be sufficient.

*We have shown our project,however it remains in our hands,I felt that it would be of no use sitting and rotting away in some shed in the college.So we did not hand it over to the college.So we can easily implement any changes.

*Aerodynamics can work wonders eh.Let's see if it can be achieved.

Thank you very much for the insight and suggestions
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Old 1st August 2013, 21:26   #13
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I dont think its sacrilegious to use a 2 stroke engine unless you are confident of your work. RD is stupidity because of what it is but using an RX engine is no biggie. Especially not with the number of RXs I see here in Hyderabad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhawcash View Post
Hey DOV,


2.You might get rid of the front brakes as rear brakes would be enough, and the weight saved by removing the front calipers, rotors, plumbing, lever would be substantial.
Wouldn't it be better if he tried using only the front brakes. I am not really sure if rear brakes are something you prefer on a dragster but according to me:
1. Most of the braking is done by the front brake, so for efficient braking, it'd be better to have just the front brake rather than just the rear brake.
2. The caliper lever and lining to front will be lesser in weight than the caliper lever and lining to rear.
3. Even though the rear wheel is powered and the need may be to brake that, I think on flats it would be in control to disengage clutch before braking.

What do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by B O V View Post

*We did do a static stress analysis using ansys with which we could get a very vague idea on where the stress was concentrated,however we couldn't do any actual analysis.
We used B class mild steel with 32 mm tubes of thickness 3mm.I'm afraid I do not understand what you meant by GI plumbing
If you did Ansys then how come you ended up such bulky tubing. I believe you have just made your chassis way heavier than required. If you would hav gone with the actual analysis, it would have helped you out a lot. In my experience 30mm tubes of 1.6mm thickness would be more than enough. Material standard could be AISI 4130 for your weight problems.

Last edited by Technocrat : 1st August 2013 at 23:14. Reason: Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD!
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Old 2nd August 2013, 11:15   #14
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhaval-mehta View Post

Wouldn't it be better if he tried using only the front brakes. I am not really sure if rear brakes are something you prefer on a dragster but according to me:
1. Most of the braking is done by the front brake, so for efficient braking, it'd be better to have just the front brake rather than just the rear brake.
2. The caliper lever and lining to front will be lesser in weight than the caliper lever and lining to rear.
3. Even though the rear wheel is powered and the need may be to brake that, I think on flats it would be in control to disengage clutch before braking.

What do you think?



If you did Ansys then how come you ended up such bulky tubing. I believe you have just made your chassis way heavier than required. If you would hav gone with the actual analysis, it would have helped you out a lot. In my experience 30mm tubes of 1.6mm thickness would be more than enough. Material standard could be AISI 4130 for your weight problems.
Hi Dhaval,
I'd still recommend rear brakes. You are 100 % right in saying that most of the braking is handled by the front wheels. But a front wheel locking up under heavy breaking may result into a deadly low slide, which would be difficult to recover from considering the riding position of the bike.
Also, the priority here is to stop safely, not quickly, as the speed run track (Rann of Kutch? bonniville salt flats?) should have ample run-off areas. And a locked up rear wheel at speed wont cause a major instability condition, as due to inertia, the CG of the bike would keep pulling on the contact patch, not allowing it to overtake the front wheel.

AISI 4130 - This is a Chrome Molybdenum Alloy, and poses difficulties while fabrication. The Welds tend to become brittle and the whole frame would need to be heat treated to relief stresses and achieve reliable performance. Plus its expensive! heat treating the whole frame sounds easy, but finding a big enough oven, for a long enough time, with temperatures monitored in a controlled way- there is a lot that may go wrong. In my opinion, Mild steel is best for one offs like these. yes it would be a bit heavy, but at least it would hold together.
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Old 2nd August 2013, 11:30   #15
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Default Re: Project:Speed Run Motorcycle

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhawcash View Post
a locked up rear wheel at speed wont cause a major instability condition, as due to inertia, the CG of the bike would keep pulling on the contact patch, not allowing it to overtake the front wheel.
Thanks, now I get the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhawcash View Post
AISI 4130 - This is a Chrome Molybdenum Alloy, and poses difficulties while fabrication. The Welds tend to become brittle and the whole frame would need to be heat treated to relief stresses and achieve reliable performance.
You are right. We have been using IS3074 for three years and AISI4130 for a couple of years now. What we do is once welded (we use MIG welding) we heat treat the welds with a gas torch. Results are stronger and lighter chassis. We have even had a rollover on our BAJA vehicle made of 4130 but there wasn't any deflection at all. And it's pretty cheap too, in Chennai at least. That was why I had suggested the alloy. If heat treatment is too much then they should have gone for IS3074. Would have been a lot lighter again.
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