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Old 11th June 2014, 08:44   #16
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

Got this done during scheduled service for my motorcycle yesterday.

Apart from the sprocket replacement, the tray below the seat was also replaced. This is being carried out for motorcycles sold up to December 2013. I do not know the correct word for "tray". Its the piece you see above the mudguard. I think there are 4 screws holding them.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 11th June 2014 at 08:46.
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Old 11th June 2014, 20:00   #17
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Originally Posted by isiv View Post
I'm not touching KTM with a 10 foot pole. Ever.
PS: I do not own a KTM or any performance motorbike
PPS: KTM owners & lovers, please think of what kind of danger you were exposed to all along and then think of your family - before you start badgering me
Hello isiv,
In that case you will run out of options to drive around in few years as I see almost all the manufacturers recalling their vehicles due to one reason or other. And yes the fatalities in the case of car manufacturers would be much higher as there are larger occupation.
And coming to think of the family here, I think what options do the so called puny 100cc bike manufacturer would give if they find a similar fault in their machine? Would they come forward and declare it? I don't think so. And coming to think of the percentage of those bikes on road, I will quit driving from this moment.
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Old 12th June 2014, 11:21   #18
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Quite surprising to see owners and others seem to think it's OK for a performance bike to have quality issues.
It is not okay at all. I agree. At the same time, all KTM motorcycles are not falling apart. The few folks who are experiencing problems are getting them addressed. KTM are not ignoring them.

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To me this is sign of abyssmal quality control/greed that's downright criminal. I really wish KTM would go out of business for putting riders lives in danger.
I am sure the problem never surfaced when they were testing the motorcycle. Some problems surface only in real world use cycles. If there is one company super pro active on quality control, it is Bajaj.

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performance at a low price (with *acceptable* quality issues)
Yes; a lot of us would like this.
There is no such thing called "acceptable" quality issues.

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please think of what kind of danger you were exposed to all along and then think of your family
Mayte; you are in a lot more danger riding a two wheeler, in our country.
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Old 12th June 2014, 13:51   #19
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am sure the problem never surfaced when they were testing the motorcycle.
You are right about this not happening on any of the test bikes.

Quote:
Some problems surface only in real world use cycles.
The pre-launch field test bikes were used in the real world, by real riders. A combined total of over 20,000 kms.

This would have been preceded by actual test bikes/prototypes run by the company riders for an undisclosed number of kilometers under different test conditions and setting.

What has actually happened here is that the denominator (sample base) has increased exponentially. So what may not be caught in 4 bikes and 20,000 kms, could/would crop up in a a few thousand bikes and a few million kilometers.

Its part of post-marketing surveillance.

Last edited by ebonho : 12th June 2014 at 14:07.
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Old 12th June 2014, 18:57   #20
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

The initial lot of motorcycles would have been hand crafted rather than on the machines. So the problem would have been overshaded by the process which would have been adopted at that stage.

Since I am from a manufacturing background, similar things do happen with me at work. What would have gone unnoticed on a proto sample would suddenly crop up on a series production. The only solution is to set right the problem at that moment and not running away from it.

Some of these can be in a preventive way which would douse the fire immediately, other would have to go through corrective way which would need certain time frame and there would be a slight delay in execution of the solution. This does not mean the safety of the rider and his family is hung by the sword's tip.

And I am with Bajaj for actively calling up the bikes for replacement of parts to overcome these defects. A recall would only shine up the brand image rather than tarnishing it.
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Old 12th June 2014, 22:42   #21
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

guys, guys. First of all I'd like to quote a piece from my own post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by isiv View Post
I do however appreciate KTM making the problem known
I am not trying to rob KTM of any credit they deserve. They have been proactive and they are fixing the problem. I repeat, thats way, way better than (maruti) saying customers dont know how to drive or (VW) saying the drums jam up because drivers do not know how to engage the parking brake...

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In that case you will run out of options
Recalls should be more exception than rule, but the trend (fashionable?) with the current crop of auto makers is becoming the reverse. Just because recalls are now common, they dont become acceptable or part of baggage of owning an automobile. To my senses, it seems like the manufacturer is simply taking the 'fix it if it breaks' approach and leaving the customers to do the QC for them at the customers cost & peril. This is what is unacceptable.

After all, I do pay the price quoted and no less, don't I? So do I deserve a product that will at least leave me alive with my limbs intact, if not remain defect free?

And let's not even talk about those who are so unscrupulous as to downplay or refuse to acknowledge problems. Again, just because such lowlife setups do exist, it does not make others any better (or worse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am sure the problem never surfaced when they were testing the motorcycle. Some problems surface only in real world use cycles. If there is one company super pro active on quality control, it is Bajaj.
If we do assume that the batch that underwent testing or the first set of production bikes did not show up this problem and only a few hundred later bikes did, does that not reek of inconsistency in quality control? Boy, am I sounding monotonous or what.

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Mayte; you are in a lot more danger riding a two wheeler, in our country.
That does not mean automakers can allow life threatening defects into their products. Sounds like the manufacturer saying 'your're going to die on the road anyway, so whats the difference whether you die because of my carelessnes or yours or somebody elses?'

Some of you would have probably guessed I held KTM in pretty high regard until this happened. Maybe that's why my posts sound harsh.

No offense indended to KTM lovers in my current or earlier posts.

Trust I've made my point clear this time.
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Old 13th June 2014, 01:18   #22
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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If we do assume that the batch that underwent testing or the first set of production bikes did not show up this problem and only a few hundred later bikes did, does that not reek of inconsistency in quality control?
Not at all.
Any product has limitations.
When a product is designed it is intended to do the task it was designed for however not all of the situations it will face can be recognized during the design phase. This is the reason a product is subjected to as many tests as can be thought of before it is finally released to the public.
During this testing, any part that shows itself to be marginal will be reevaluated and redesigned to assure its reliability.

Unfortunately, every situation cannot be envisioned and tested during this phase so occasionally a problem will show itself after the product is sold to the public.

It should also be recognized that there is a limit to the duration of the testing.
Yes, a company can test a product for several million kilometers but if it did so, the product would take years to complete the tests. By the time it finally passed this sort of testing program it would be outdated and unsaleable.

This brings us to life in the real world.
A company does its best to design a product that will be 100 percent reliable.

It tests the product to assure its reliability and changes anything that proves to be weak or unsafe.

It maintains the highest quality assurance to make certain that all of the parts being manufactured meet all of the design requirements and are assembled correctly.

It maintains a constant feedback from the customers and dealers to determine if any problem has shown up.

If a "field problem" shows up, it redesigns the hardware that is needed to correct the deficiency and provides warranty coverage to replace the defective parts.

It notifies all of the owners and the dealers of the correction by issuing a "Recall notice".

It is then up to the owners to decide if they want to take advantage of the needed repairs or replacements being offered by the company.

In this particular case, KTM is doing everything they can be expected to do.
They are proving their quality system is as good or better than can be expected.

They have identified a problem. They have redesigned the hardware, They have issued a Recall Notice. Now it is up to the owners to take advantage of this.
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Old 13th June 2014, 09:16   #23
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Originally Posted by ArizonaJim View Post
..Any product has limitations.
When a product is designed it is intended to do the task it was designed for however not all of the situations it will face can be recognized during the design phase.
+1 Jim!

I have mentioned this before too. No matter how well you design a product, a minor percentage of errors will seep into the final product. Remember that the 'real' test of the product will be done by the end user. A company which glues itself to a basic set of ethics will always admit its mistake and value their customer's interest/life(in this case) more and will take proactive measures to keep their customer's trust on them alive. Even if it costs them a fortune.

Here KTM has accepted the fact that there is a defect in there final product and they are fixing that issue. They could have kept quiet on this and a couple of riders might have met with accidents due to this defect, or even worse. This is just like a kid telling his/her parents that he/she was the one who broke that expensive china in cupboard even before they notice! Cheesy comparison, no?

comparison: Its not as bad as Porsche asking its '14 GT3 customers NOT TO DRIVE the car because there is a chance that it may catch fire!

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Old 13th June 2014, 09:20   #24
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Originally Posted by isiv View Post
does that not reek of inconsistency in quality control?
I own one of these production motorcycles and did not face the problem. There are a good number of 390 motorcycles sold and I have not read off anyone facing the problem. KTM identified or was notified of the problem, possibly from a user, a test mule and are correcting it before things go out of hand. If you are saying they don't care about it, why should they even bother will a recall. Lets all ride and die. What say?

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That does not mean automakers can allow life threatening defects into their products
Nobody is. Some things just don't surface on the test bed. If that is really the case, don't you think a good number of automobile manufacturers should be shut down. What do you say to another forum member case when his brand new Honda motorcycle experienced a partial sieze. Not a manufacturing defect is it? Or do you think its perfectly alright for this to happen on a Honda.
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Old 13th June 2014, 10:44   #25
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

Actually Sandeep, all cases I have heard about are on production commercial lot bikes. Not test mules.

And unk9ja is spot on. The test bikes are hand assembled/put together in the R&D facility. Not on the eventual shop floor and robotized production assembly line. You will see a number of "hand made" signs (like spot welds and hand paints) around the bike which would be slick and smooth on the final production bikes.

Another thing is that the test bikes are not serviced at the regular Bajaj dealer service centers. But deep inside the R&D facility. What happens in there even the test riders do not know.

Last edited by ebonho : 13th June 2014 at 10:57.
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Old 13th June 2014, 11:02   #26
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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What happens in there even the test riders do not know.
Nor do we know what breaks or falls apart on a test motorcycle right?
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Old 13th June 2014, 11:34   #27
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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Nor do we know what breaks or falls apart on a test motorcycle right?
I did not get you.

If it breaks while the test rider is riding it, of course he would know.

A chain and sprocket jumping off on the move is not something anybody would miss.

Last edited by ebonho : 13th June 2014 at 11:35.
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Old 13th June 2014, 13:17   #28
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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I did not get you.
I meant to say, we won't know what is falling apart on the test mule. That information will be known only to the rider and will be shared with R&D.
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Old 13th June 2014, 13:45   #29
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

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I meant to say, we won't know what is falling apart on the test mule. That information will be known only to the rider and will be shared with R&D.
Yes that is correct.

In the end, the product and the company speaks for itself in the market.
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Old 13th June 2014, 17:33   #30
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Default Re: KTM recalling 390s (pre-March 2014) for Free front sprocket change

Call me a cynic if you like, but I have an unpleasant question to ask of all those who are trying to describe this as a normal product lifecycle occurrence:

Suppose you owned this bike (I know for instance @sandeepmohan does) or suppose a near and dear one owned this bike. And god forbid, this 'normal ' occurrence caused you to lose that near and dear one, or caused you to lose a limb or two.

Would that produce a change in your perspective?

Hats off and respect to those who answer 'no'.

OTOH, if you answer 'yes', may I ask why.

I believe most of my comments can be applied to many automakers of today. I've nothing personal against KTM nor do I have any pet brands to whose mistakes I will turn a blind eye.
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