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Old 8th July 2016, 13:24   #271
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
I was doing a random search on the 200's alternator and came across this blog post:

https://orangemadnes.wordpress.com/2...r-duke-200390/

I don't know how much credibility, if any, this post has but if you look at the very first issue the person has mentioned seems awfully similar to what I have observed. So it might just be the alternator. What do you think?
Most of the symptoms(speedo showing zero, low battery warning) you mentioned relates to stator coil. One possible way to check if the stator is the problem would be to check the voltage across the battery terminal with and without load.

1. Check the open load voltage(voltage across battery terminal when bike is off), it should be close to 13V if its less charge the battery. Don't perform the second test when the battery doesn't have sufficient charge.

2. Check charging voltage with load.
i. Crank the engine & check the voltage as per the workshop manual at 5K RPM voltage should be around 13.5 to 15 V if the voltage is lesser than 13.5V stator coil needs to be replaced.

ii. Switch on the the headlamp and measure the voltage, as per the SVC folks the voltage shouldn't drop more than a volt, if it drops lower than a volt the stator coil is the culprit.

This kind of scenario (stator working but not able to handle the load) is when you start seeing the intermittent 'low battery' warning, I observed it while riding in slow moving traffic at night(scenario when head lamp will be ON always & radiator fan also comes into picture often).
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Old 8th July 2016, 13:40   #272
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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I observed it while riding in slow moving traffic at night(scenario when head lamp will be ON always & radiator fan also comes into picture often).
Now i have a serious doubt! As all our stator failing so soon, How come KTM equipped their bikes with DRL? 390's get heated up soon and with the light and fan continously running, they should've changed the stator coil to a better quality. If not, it's gonna hurt our pockets very often!
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Old 8th July 2016, 14:32   #273
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

why can't we get the stator coil winding done outside ? Quality can be better and morover with a better stator coil more power can be produced. This extra power will be very useful in powering up the aux lights.
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Old 10th July 2016, 01:38   #274
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Originally Posted by samschenker View Post
Most of the symptoms(speedo showing zero, low battery warning) you mentioned relates to stator coil. One possible way to check if the stator is the problem would be to check the voltage across the battery terminal with and without load.

This kind of scenario (stator working but not able to handle the load) is when you start seeing the intermittent 'low battery' warning, I observed it while riding in slow moving traffic at night(scenario when head lamp will be ON always & radiator fan also comes into picture often).

Thanks for the reference voltages. I will perform the tests on Tuesday when I am back in Noida. The service centre had checked the alternator directly too and found no issue. But I think the issue might still be in its rudimentary stage so it probably shows up only intermittently. I have a feeling even the tests you have prescribed might not reveal the problem but it might just get worse with time. In any case the alternator is one component that needs to be taken seriously since it's not a bike like a Bullet which doesn't need a precisely controlled or even consistent power supply to keep running.

It is really weird that these KTM's have problematic alternators. The locally made desi 6-volt alternator in our old '79 Bullet did service for many years and was only replaced when I got the system upgraded to 12 volts. And this when the Duke has sophisticated electronics and our Bullet had no semiconductor based components.




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Originally Posted by nitninja View Post
why can't we get the stator coil winding done outside ? Quality can be better and morover with a better stator coil more power can be produced. This extra power will be very useful in powering up the aux lights.
That is a good idea. However, while it would work in Bullets and Pulsar's and Karizma's, it may not work on a KTM since the power running through the electricals of a Duke is very precisely controlled. Turning on the headlight should show very little dip in voltage while on a Pulsar it is more pronounced. Of course, this is my guess. An electronic engineer can say better.
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Old 10th July 2016, 09:02   #275
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
I was doing a random search on the 200's alternator
This was taken off the repair manual. Have you performed these tests?
Attached Images
 

Last edited by SDP : 11th November 2016 at 22:58. Reason: typo
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Old 10th July 2016, 15:20   #276
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
Thanks for the reference voltages. I will perform the tests on Tuesday when is a good idea. However, while it would work in Bullets and Pulsar's and Karizma's, it may not work on a KTM since the power running through the electricals of a Duke is very precisely controlled. Turning on the headlight should show very little dip in voltage while on a Pulsar it is more pronounced. Of course, this is my guess. An electronic engineer can say better.
Im very sure our desi motor winders can do a neat job and it's not that difficult too. Why can't we fix RC bike's stator coil and rectifier in our dukes ? that way another 55 watt aux light can be fixed on our bikes.
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Old 10th July 2016, 19:30   #277
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Originally Posted by Vignesh_N/A View Post
This was taken off the repair manual. Have you preformed these tests?
Thank you for that page! I will perform this test and also ask the SVC guys if they had performed the same test when I had asked them to check the battery and alternator's health. I will do all those tests and report back here. I hope my multimeter is working alright. I wonder if the regulator/rectifier should be checked too.




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Originally Posted by nitninja View Post
Im very sure our desi motor winders can do a neat job and it's not that difficult too. Why can't we fix RC bike's stator coil and rectifier in our dukes ? that way another 55 watt aux light can be fixed on our bikes.
I think this is an experiment that someone should do. It should be possible to install those components in the Duke. Only thing to find out is if any other parts would need to be changed.
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Old 10th July 2016, 20:11   #278
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Vignesh_N/A View Post
This was taken off the repair manual. Have you preformed these tests?
Measuring <1 Ohm, (but not = 0, I assume), is not something which can be done confidently with the normal meters we have at hand.

What exactly fails? Short between turns/ layers, or short to ground, or open circuit, or what? Is the pattern of failure consistent?

Regards
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Old 12th July 2016, 15:59   #279
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vignesh_N/A View Post
This was taken off the repair manual. Have you preformed these tests?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Measuring <1 Ohm, (but not = 0, I assume), is not something which can be done confidently with the normal meters we have at hand.
I performed the alternator resistance test today and found the results to be normal. Resistance across 1 and 2 was 0.8 Ohm. Same between 1 and 3. Resistance between 1 and Ground was not showing. Same as open circuit. So the coils seem OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samschenker View Post

1. Check the open load voltage(voltage across battery terminal when bike is off), it should be close to 13V if its less charge the battery. Don't perform the second test when the battery doesn't have sufficient charge.

2. Check charging voltage with load.
i. Crank the engine & check the voltage as per the workshop manual at 5K RPM voltage should be around 13.5 to 15 V if the voltage is lesser than 13.5V stator coil needs to be replaced.

ii. Switch on the the headlamp and measure the voltage, as per the SVC folks the voltage shouldn't drop more than a volt, if it drops lower than a volt the stator coil is the culprit.

This kind of scenario (stator working but not able to handle the load) is when you start seeing the intermittent 'low battery' warning, I observed it while riding in slow moving traffic at night(scenario when head lamp will be ON always & radiator fan also comes into picture often)
The bike had not been started since Thursday. I performed the voltage measurements across the battery terminals today as follows:

1. Without turning on the ignition - 12.73V

2. Ignition turned on and fuel pump primed - 12.35V

At this stage I saw a "Low Battery" warning on the console but I decided to proceed with the tests anyway. Interestingly, when I touched the starter button it started on a short crank almost instantly!

3. As soon as the engine started idling, voltage went up to 14.46V

4. Revved the engine to about 5000 RPM several times. Voltage went up to and stayed at 14.52V.

5. With the engine idling I turned on the headlight (I have HID, Hyluxtek ballast and Morimoto bulb) and the voltage dipped to 13.7V.

6. After maybe 30 seconds as the HID warmed up, the voltage stabilized at 14.28V and stayed there.

7. I blew the horns (Hella Supertone aka Red Grille) for 2-4 seconds continuously and the voltage dipped to about 12.78V.

Now, I have picked up two things from this:

1. The battery might be gone again even though I do not think it has completed 2 years. Not sure about exact life of the battery.

2. I need to reconsider my choice of horns. They are rated at 5.5A a peice so that is 11A a pair. That is a load of 132W. For reference, Roots Windtone trumpet type horns consume 5A a piece or 10A a pair.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 12th July 2016, 16:24   #280
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
Well, I bought the plate in June and they did not send any rubber washers or bushes. I suppose I should get them made.
Sorry for the late reply - was away from forum for couple of days. Yes, please add them - they do make a difference.


Quote:
And no, I haven't documented the engine replacement anywhere. Maybe I should. In short, the engine had to be opened thrice in the first 14000 km to try and solve the problem of the airbox getting flooded with oil.

...
I got a 2013 engine which was then re-stamped with my engine number at the SVC itself. New engine sounds quite different from the original one. Problem never occurred again. Not such a short story after all...
Wow, that is quiet an ordeal. Happy that it is solved now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samschenker View Post
Most of the symptoms(speedo showing zero, low battery warning) you mentioned relates to stator coil. One possible way to check if the stator is the problem would be to check the voltage across the battery terminal with and without load.
Thank you for the reference voltages. I too think the issues are related to stator coil.

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Originally Posted by CGB View Post
Now i have a serious doubt! ... they should've changed the stator coil to a better quality. If not, it's gonna hurt our pockets very often!
They did - I think they changed the stator coil after 1 or 2 years and I haven't heard the stator coil complaints from the 2015 model onward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vignesh_N/A View Post
This was taken off the repair manual. Have you preformed these tests?
Wow, thank you for this. I am sure this will help many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitninja View Post
Im very sure our desi motor winders can do a neat job and it's not that difficult too. Why can't we fix RC bike's stator coil and rectifier in our dukes ? that way another 55 watt aux light can be fixed on our bikes.
I checked this while I was getting my stator coil replaced and the SVC guys (Auto Service, Banashankari) said the RC stator coil is not compatible with D200.

Quote:
I got the battery voltage and charging performance checked through the load tester at the SVC and all the indications were normal. They even checked the alternator output and found it OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
I performed the alternator resistance test today and found the results to be normal. Resistance across 1 and 2 was 0.8 Ohm. Same between 1 and 3. Resistance between 1 and Ground was not showing. Same as open circuit. So the coils seem OK.
I think the problem is with stator coil. I had these exact symptoms (all other than slow crank) but it took almost an year for my stator coil to fail (from the day I first got 0 on speedo to the consistent low battery warning which lead to the changing of stator coil).

Initially, all the diagnoses showed that my stator coil was fine, and I could use the bike without any issues (discounting the intermittent 0 on speedometer and low battery warning). Almost after an year, the low battery warning started popping up often - when the fan runs, when I use my aux lights\horns etc (my duke have a pair of LED aux lights and a pair of Roots windtone horns). Then I took the bike again to SVC and they verified that my stator coil is gone.

So, I think your bike's stator coil is also showing the initial symptoms. If you want to re confirm, take the bike to SVC and ask them to remove the stator coil and check - if you can see the blackening, you can be sure that the coil needs replacement.

The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200-img_20160621_100451.jpg

--Anoop

Last edited by theexperthand : 12th July 2016 at 16:50.
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Old 12th July 2016, 16:42   #281
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
they do make a difference.

Wow, that is quiet an ordeal. Happy that it is solved now.

I think the problem is with stator coil. I had these exact symptoms (all otehr than slow crank) but it took almost an year for my stator coil to fail (from the day I first got 0 on speedo to the consistent low battery warning which lead to the changing of stator coil).

Initially, all the diagnoses showed that my stator coil was fine, and I could use the bike without any issues (discounting the intermittent 0 on speedo and low battery warning). Almost after an year, the low battery warning started popping up often - when the fan runs, when I use my aux lights\horns etc (my duke have a pair of LED aux lights and a pair of Roots windtone horns). Then I took the bike again to SVC and they virfied that my stator coil is gone.

So, I think your bike's stator coil is also showing the initial symptoms. If you want to re confirm, take the bike to SVC and ask them to remove the stator coil and check - if you can see the blackening, you can be sure that the coil needs replacement.

--Anoop
I will contact the guys at Indimotard to ask for specs and installation tips so as to make the proper washers. Maybe just a strip of inner tube from a tyre will do.

Yes, it was quite annoying but since the area manager and SVC were quite supportive I decided to give them the opportunities to try and fix the issue before I asked them for a replacement. The engine started leaking from the rocker cover shortly after though. I got that fixed only last year. There also seems to be a leak now at the point where the alternator cable exits the chamber cover.

The highlighted line in your quoted post is the key point here. If I consider the fact that the intermittent zero speedo reading is now more frequent, it further corroborates your assessment. The stator will not fail immediately but might just well be on its way to failure. Also, if the speedo console logic was corrupted, the frequency of the 0 reading would not have changed.

I think I will go ahead and get the stator removed and examined. I might just get it changed regardless of how it looks. Considering that the job takes 3-4 hours, I'll have to plan a visit in advance... or I might just pop in at the SVC tomorrow.
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Old 12th July 2016, 16:56   #282
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

And this is how a failed stator coil will look like. Take from my friend's bike.

The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200-img20160402wa0014.jpg
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Old 12th July 2016, 17:07   #283
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by Darth Sid View Post
I will contact the guys at Indimotard to ask for specs and installation tips so as to make the proper washers. Maybe just a strip of inner tube from a tyre will do.
I think any good quality washer will do. Why go for the jugaad when rubber washers are available for dime a dozen?

Quote:
Yes, it was quite annoying but since the area manager and SVC were quite supportive I decided to give them the opportunities to try and fix the issue before I asked them for a replacement. The engine started leaking from the rocker cover shortly after though. I got that fixed only last year. There also seems to be a leak now at the point where the alternator cable exits the chamber cover.
Nice to know that. If I was in your shoes, my patience would have run out much earlier

Quote:
The highlighted line in your quoted post is the key point here.

I think I will go ahead and get the stator removed and examined. I might just get it changed regardless of how it looks. Considering that the job takes 3-4 hours, I'll have to plan a visit in advance... or I might just pop in at the SVC tomorrow.
Yes, I think it is better to remove the stator coil, check and confirm. But it is not a 2-3 hour job - this can be done maximum in 1 hour, if a mechanic is working exclusively on your bike.

PS: I kind of forgot if you have the bash plate fixed now, or is waiting to be fixed. If SVC remove bash plate, then it is definitely a 3 hour job - 1 hour to replace the coil, 2 hours to fix the bash plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by unk9ja View Post
And this is how a failed stator coil will look like. Take from my friend's bike.

Attachment 1527959
Thanks!

This was how my stator coil looked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post

The old vs new.

Attachment 1463545

--Anoop

Last edited by theexperthand : 12th July 2016 at 17:12.
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Old 12th July 2016, 20:14   #284
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I think any good quality washer will do. Why go for the jugaad when rubber washers are available for dime a dozen?--Anoop
The bush from the Indimotard is nearly 10 mm thick and was not rubber. Rubber would disintegrate due to the heat in the vicinity. It looked like suspension bush material. I am planning to drop down at Indi next week. Do you want me to get a set and courier to you.
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Old 12th July 2016, 20:39   #285
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Default Re: The Duke of Direwolves - Lisbeth, my KTM Duke 200

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Originally Posted by unk9ja View Post
And this is how a failed stator coil will look like. Take from my friend's bike.
Possible to take corresponding Ohm readings from this burnt out stator?

Regards
Sutripta
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