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Old 11th November 2014, 21:21   #16
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

ABS only for the front or both brakes?
If it is the later, then both brakes should be hydraulic (disc) This should increase the price of entry level commuter bikes by atleast 10~15%. Basic driving discipline should prevent a lot of mishaps rather than adding ABS.
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Old 12th November 2014, 10:32   #17
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by Silverflash View Post
Creating a sport category license, and making it mandatory before buying bikes above a certain BHP/tonne rating
Just my opinion, of course.
Amen to that. India is turning into a country of small cars and big bikes. Most riders can't use a 200cc entry level motorcycle without pretending they're Marquez. I cringe every time I see one of these riders on litre class superbikes.
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Old 12th November 2014, 11:24   #18
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by Mr.Boss View Post
ABS only for the front or both brakes?
If it is the later, then both brakes should be hydraulic (disc) This should increase the price of entry level commuter bikes by atleast 10~15%. Basic driving discipline should prevent a lot of mishaps rather than adding ABS.
If it was discipline that would always make us riders safe, then why did ABS ever come live?
I feel that there is much more than disciplined driving. There are a lot more factors I suppose, for getting into a mishap.
What if the road is slippery and someone lost control even while staying under the guided speed and lane driving system? Wouldn't the ABS be a better bet there?

And I do agree with you bout the discipline as well.
IMO, both discipline and ABS like safety features would combine to be much more safety reliable.
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Old 12th November 2014, 12:35   #19
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

Having ridden the 390 in torrential rain on slick concrete highway surfaces, and finding myself gradually comfortably doing speeds I would never dream of doing in similar conditions on a non ABS bike (with equal tyres), I must say that regardless all arguments about fun factor and experienced riders modulating their own braking etc. simply go out of the window.

ABS not only makes the bike pretty newbie proof, it also significantly expands the safe speed envelope for experienced riders who have ridden for years on non ABS bikes. The only problem being, over time, it would invariably cause those same riders to unlearn/lose a lot of their traditional braking craft, to the extent where going back to a non ABS bike would prove challenging. At least intially, with a refresher period, if not relearning, involved.

However, they would still adapt. I fear for those riders who would learn on ABS bikes. Could they ever ride a non ABS one safely? Can an automatic driver drive stick? Can a scooty rider ride a geared bike?

Last edited by ebonho : 12th November 2014 at 12:36.
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Old 12th November 2014, 13:01   #20
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

It seems they are targeting only the heavy bikes initially, meaning 90% of the market will be left untouched. If ABS is considered expensive, why can't the law at least mandate that both the front and rear brakes are connected to a single lever. So irrespective of whether you press the foot pedal or the hand lever, both brakes work. This small change alone could save a lot of lives.
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Old 12th November 2014, 13:12   #21
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
If ABS is considered expensive, why can't the law at least mandate that both the front and rear brakes are connected to a single lever. So irrespective of whether you press the foot pedal or the hand lever, both brakes work. This small change alone could save a lot of lives.
That's the Combi Brake system of Activa type scooters. I have heard pretty bad things about it actually, to the contrary. You cannot be applying the same amount of force, at the same time, to both brakes. Which is what happens in rudimentary linked systems like these. There are high end bikes like BMW etc. which have a lot more sophisticated systems with on board computers calculating a whole lot of things multiple times every second and modulating brake force to each wheel. But those systems would likely cost more than a few of our bikes combined .....

Last edited by ebonho : 12th November 2014 at 13:14.
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Old 12th November 2014, 13:20   #22
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
If ABS is considered expensive, why can't the law at least mandate that both the front and rear brakes are connected to a single lever. So irrespective of whether you press the foot pedal or the hand lever, both brakes work. This small change alone could save a lot of lives.
With due respect, a hundred times NO to this idea. As a lifelong biker, I can get used to the idea of ABS on the bike (as long as I can turn it on and off when I want to), but absolutely draw the line at my braking technique being dictated to me.

There are hundreds of occasions where I absolutely do not want to use both brakes together. Being able to apply stopping force to my wheel of choice is one of the most basic ways in which I stay safe on a bike. Taking this away from me would be the very opposite of a safety measure.

Honestly, I don't see ABS as a safety measure, I see it as an added riding tool. In many ways, getting new riders used to ABS from the get-go could make them very poor riders in the long run. ABS has its uses - I will definitely turn the system on if I'm riding in the wet, for example. But in normal circumstances, I would no more want ABS on my bike than I would want traction control in a car (well, unless it is some kind of hypercar monster, of course).
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Old 12th November 2014, 13:27   #23
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
If ABS is considered expensive, why can't the law at least mandate that both the front and rear brakes are connected to a single lever. So irrespective of whether you press the foot pedal or the hand lever, both brakes work. This small change alone could save a lot of lives.
Though your intention is good, but applying the brakes of your choice (front or rear) helps experienced riders manage the braking dynamics of the bike, like braking on a curve, etc.
Also, mastering the braking on a motorcycle is a skill which is fun when you learn.
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Old 12th November 2014, 15:52   #24
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by Sandm4n View Post
If it was discipline that would always make us riders safe, then why did ABS ever come live?
Did I ever mentioned driving discipline could solve all the issues against which ABS is implemented? I said most of the mishaps will get reduced (not all the mishaps)
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Old 13th November 2014, 10:44   #25
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by Mr.Boss View Post
Did I ever mentioned driving discipline could solve all the issues against which ABS is implemented? I said most of the mishaps will get reduced (not all the mishaps)
"rather than adding ABS."
Well maybe this sounded too confident.
And I did respect your opinion which you failed to notice.

Peace!
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Old 16th November 2014, 19:43   #26
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

News had it that Continental was supposed to come up with a low cost ABS for bikes.

For low cost ABS I would suggest only a front ABS with a powerful disc should do wonders. At the same time reduce the bite of the rear brakeshoe so that it would require a very heavy foot to start a rear wheel skid.
Majority of motorbike riders ride bikes below 150-200cc and a low cost ABS device can be implemented in these low cost motorbikes.

Yes its always very easy to implement ABS on higher cc bikes because the consumer can afford easily an increase in cost and also most of the higher cc motorbike manufacturers already have this technology in their kitty (Exceptions like RE).

Although I believe ABS is a must in two wheelers but at the same time I believe that it would not reduce substantially the two wheeler fatalities.

Most of these fatalities are because of:
1) Two wheeler drivers lack of awareness about driving/defensive driving and ignorance about ones own and others safety. Obviously its easy for villagers to fall in this category due to lack of awareness infrastructure in villagers.
2) Lack of four wheeler riders concerns towards two wheeler riders safety. Many truck drivers/car drivers hardly respect any two wheeler while overtaking or in city. They drive too close sometimes and scare the wits of the two wheeler riders.
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Old 16th November 2014, 22:09   #27
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
For low cost ABS I would suggest only a front ABS with a powerful disc should do wonders.
This would not work because a majority of the riders do not use the front brake at all! There is a misconception that only the driven wheel (the rear) needs to be braked. A simple observation of the braking pattern of riders on the road will prove this (I have observed myself, and can vouch for it). Also many people fear that the front brake will throw them off!

Therefore any new system needs to be comprehensive (in this case, ABS on both wheels) and should not come with an unlearning/relearning of habits. It is very difficult to educate the masses; most do not know/will not agree that the majority of the braking force needs to be applied to the front.
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Old 16th November 2014, 23:21   #28
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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This would not work because a majority of the riders do not use the front brake at all!
Agree but times are changing and younger generation has started using front brakes too.
If one applies only the rear brakes then we need not give them a ABS because most likely they are going to hit anyhow due to large braking distances.

Yes rear wheel skids can be reduced but it will not help in reducing braking distances by any substantial margin.

Quote:
Therefore any new system needs to be comprehensive (in this case, ABS on both wheels) and should not come with an unlearning/relearning of habits. It is very difficult to educate the masses; most do not know/will not agree that the majority of the braking force needs to be applied to the front.
Having an ABS designed for both wheels and being cost effective is going to be difficult.
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Old 16th November 2014, 23:43   #29
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
Agree but times are changing and younger generation has started using front brakes too.
If one applies only the rear brakes then we need not give them a ABS because most likely they are going to hit anyhow due to large braking distances.

Yes rear wheel skids can be reduced but it will not help in reducing braking distances by any substantial margin.



Having an ABS designed for both wheels and being cost effective is going to be difficult.
Agree with your views that many owners of bikes like p220 or r15 or the ktms rely on their front brake a lot .

From what I understand , ABS if made mandatory will be for bikes above a certain cubic capacity , likely 250cc(lol imagine royal enfield trying to get ABS right in their bikes ) . Even above that capacity many premium bikes are sold in their stock version without ABS , this law if enforced will make ABS mandatory for that class . For example the current crop of kawasaki bikes at 300 and 650cc don't offer ABS even as extra.

The way ABS system works in current bike requires sensor in both wheels (ABS works by comparing the speed between 2 or in case of cars 4 wheels , if one is rotating slower than the other and crosses a certain threshold , ABS will kick in ) , as such having ABS for just one wheel will still require sensor in the rear , the money saved by axing the rear line is hardly worth the sacrifice and effort .

Also this is the most basic type of ABS system , there are couple of higher grades which offer traction control and lean sensor normally present in premier segment bikes .

Last edited by basuroy : 16th November 2014 at 23:46.
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Old 17th November 2014, 12:16   #30
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Default Re: Government could make ABS compulsory for two-wheelers

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Originally Posted by basuroy View Post
Agree with your views that many owners of bikes like p220 or r15 or the ktms rely on their front brake a lot .

The way ABS system works in current bike requires sensor in both wheels (ABS works by comparing the speed between 2 or in case of cars 4 wheels , if one is rotating slower than the other and crosses a certain threshold , ABS will kick in ) , as such having ABS for just one wheel will still require sensor in the rear , the money saved by axing the rear line is hardly worth the sacrifice and effort .

Also this is the most basic type of ABS system , there are couple of higher grades which offer traction control and lean sensor normally present in premier segment bikes .
Thanks for correcting me, if this is the way a motorcycle ABS works then we should have a rear wheel ABS too. But I remember reading an article on Continental developing an ABS for front wheel only and to keep costs down for developing markets.

Let me search for that article again and comeback to you. I am still wondering how on earth will they find true ground speed without the rear wheel speed sensor. Because ABS action would be based on difference between relative ground speeds wrt to wheel rpm.
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