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Old 21st February 2016, 17:46   #31
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Shift-sock-shifter-motorcycle-shoe-boot-protector-cover-protectors-covers-/181071477892"]
Omg, that thing costs 16$, but okay, I get the idea. Thanks.
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Old 21st February 2016, 19:31   #32
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

I do vote in favour of the Heel-Toe Shifter. Though I would go a step ahead and recommend the arrangement in the Yamaha Enticer where there was also a big enough platform to rest one's soles on both the sides.

The Toe shifter is bad for the rider and his shoes. Somehow, stucking my toes between the footpeg and the lever to upshift is not very comforting; especially if one gets into an accident. I consider it to be an ergonomic hazard.

As for the gear pattern arrangement, I think the clean N-1-2-3.... Arrangement works much cleanly and one can actually get into the neutral without having to fiddle and curse as the bike gains years. In bikes that have no Gear shift indicator, one can actually shift down quickly to get into Neutral (If one loses count) and then work one's way up.
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Old 21st February 2016, 20:42   #33
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by LordSharan View Post
Agreed. Spoilt some of my shoes due to Toe only shifter and I thought of doing some Jugaad based solution to prevent it from happening (like wrapping a piece of cloth on my left shoe) but didnt work out so well, also not so practical. I think the best way would be to maintain a pair of shoes in office (because I worked mostly in client facing profiles), given that I want to bike to my office for foreseeable future.
Hi there.

Normally, I would recommend riding shoes with proper ankle support for riding at all times, but I understand some situations you are left riding with regular shoes especially when biking is used primarily as transport.

So, for guys like you, I would recommend this Jugaad.

Get some Tennis Wrist Sweat Bands made famous by this guy:
Name:  22borg533.jpg
Views: 1289
Size:  49.5 KB

Image source:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...22borg-533.jpg

You can get some from ebay for as little as Rs.150 a pair:
http://www.ebay.in/itm/Sweat-Wrist-B...0AAOSwgQ9V5djO

You can get color to match your outfit or bike

You can keep it in your backpack or tank pouch.

A cheap and effective solution to shoe damage.

Cheers

Ride Safe.

P.S. Bjorn Borg used intentionally for an on topic off topic reference.
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Old 21st February 2016, 22:16   #34
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

What Dilip Bam has to say about these two issues?

First, the lack of kick-starter:
  • Never buy a bike without kick starter, bkoz if battery is dead (which happens very often) you have to push start=PoO0o0oSH! And pushing a 167 kg bike is a very strenuous effort! You can fall down and get badly hurt! You can even get heart attack and even young people can die. 0lder people are more likely to die!
http://dilipbam.com/bikes/262-buyers...ich-honda.html

Then the toe-only gear shifter:

"And then there is the issue of T0E-ONLY gear shifter! Why, oh why?! It is bad for my delicate, corporate shoe-polish! Meri corporate social position ka kya hoga! Why do these manufacturers believe that reducing 25 grams of weight is more important than shining leather boots?"

http://dilipbam.com/bikes/305-honda-...road-test.html

And finally, this bit about clip-on handle bars is OT and should go in to the Dilip Bam thread, but I could not stop laughing and so here it is! Hope the mods won't mind!

"First and foremost, the riding posture and seating geometry is NOT suitable for my age and my size. Due to the ClipOn= sleep0n handlebar, driver has to forever lean on the handlebar like continuous racing stance=position. I may be 68, but as yet I don’t need to lean. I need no stick. I am still homo-ERECTUS. But this seating posture/geometry makes me homo-BENDUS, which puts pressure on my arms which I don’t need, require or want. It makes me uncomfortable."

"This seating geometry may be OK for an 18 year old with a Perpetually Perpendicular Perpendicularity where he is forever racing, but not for 68year man like me."

Last edited by Gansan : 21st February 2016 at 22:34.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 09:39   #35
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by LordSharan View Post
Omg, that thing costs 16$, ...
Here you go a do-it-yourself solution....
X-Bhp link

As an alternative, Shifter sock is $2.25

Last edited by Spinnerr : 22nd February 2016 at 09:51. Reason: Added ShifterSock
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Old 22nd February 2016, 11:25   #36
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by Sheel View Post


Won't shifting from neutral directly to second cause a huge clank in the GB? Unsure if Motorcycles have that short ration in 2nd gear.
It depends on how much torque the bike makes in low rpm. It's easy in an RE, some Harleys. Not so much in other bikes.
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Old 22nd February 2016, 13:18   #37
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

Hello there....

In many ways, there is no correct answer to this one. It all depends upon the ergonomics of the bike. For example, when I was in the US many years ago, the bikes that I rode were sports bikes with an aggressive riding position. You sat high on the motorcycle, and your feet was positioned inclined in a way that the toe-shifter made sense. Similarly, a few cruiser bikes that I rode had a feet forward position, where the gear level was positioned in a way that toe-shifting made sense. Back in India, I had a royal enfield thunderbird, which had the heel & toe-shifter. In the RE, you sit straight with your feel flat on the foot peg, which made using the heel shifter easy. I prefered using the toe part, but that was more because of my earlier experience using only the toe shifter.

So what works best depends a lot upon how your feet is placed on the foot-peg. I do agree that for people who wear corporate wear (as in formal shoes) and commute on a bike, the heel shifter helps to reduce the wear on the shoes - though in the interest of safety, formal shoes is a 'no-no' for riding. I used to carry my formal shoes & trousers in my backpack, and use proper riding wear in India & the US while commuting by motorcycle

Best,
anandpkumar
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Old 22nd February 2016, 22:40   #38
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

Wow. Brings back a lot of memories from the 'learning to ride a geared motorcycle' days... Once I got used to the Toe shifter, no way I could go back to the old N1234 heelshifters.

With the toe shifter, I never come to neutral at all except, of course, when absolutely needed. My bike is always in gear (not sure what are the cons of this).
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Old 23rd February 2016, 15:20   #39
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by BeantownThinker View Post
Here's a thought, why not do away completely with the shifters at the foot but instead have them on the handle like we have paddle shifters in cars?

And with regard to the kick-starter why have a manual crank in this day and age when the reliability of electric starters are proven. Should we also ask for a manual crank starters to be brought back in cars? I feel the kick-start is completely unnecessary.
You're forgetting us Royal Enfield customers. Most times, the bike refuses to start even on a fully charged battery. Needs to be kicked in the mornings or on cold starts...
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Old 24th February 2016, 20:10   #40
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

I also feel that a heel and toe shifter requires you to move the foot around a lot more than just a toe shifter. The ideal riding 'ergonomics' would be to get your foot into a comfortable position, and then have minimal movement for shifting and breaking (rear). Having to move your leg back and forth between the heel and toe part seems a bit cumbersome in my opinion, though most people will get used to it over time.

Also, I prefer to have my feet slightly bent downwards while on the footpeg, since it seems to cause less strain on the ankle as compared to keeping the feet straight. In the feet bent position, a toe shifter is far more easier to operate. Have not discussed this with other bikers - so am not sure if others also feel the same way

Best,
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Old 24th February 2016, 22:52   #41
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

IMHO, heel shifters are a pain on anything beyond a splendour like commuter. I have actually chopped off the heel shifter from my Enfield. I like to lock in to my bike with my heels, especially whilst cornering. I would inadvertently hit the heel shifter and the bike would often slip into a false neutral and just coast. In the middle of a corner, this can be quite unnerving, trust me. Moreover, toe shifter provides a better feel and precise shifts and I find the heel shifters to be rather vague

Shoes getting spoilt - I believe the bigger problem here is people not being worried about their feet turning to mush in the absence of protective footwear. I commute on my motorcycle daily and wear proper riding boots each time I ride. I have a formal pair lying in my desk drawer that I often carry back for regular spit and shine work

Shift socks and all can be both expensive and intrusive. The jugaad arm band that covers the sole of your boot ..... how good do you think the grip levels would be? How soon would it get frayed being mushed between your boot and the asphalt? Not a good idea

To conclude, I hope we all start worrying a little more about the well being of our irreplacable feet and a little less about shiny work wear
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Old 25th February 2016, 22:10   #42
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

I had a Pulsar 150, though it had a heel-toe shifter i used only the toe shifter, kind-of got used to the habit because it just felt good , shoes getting dirty were a different story. Rear-set foot pegs make the heel shifter difficult as your legs are far behind already and again you have to take them back a little. But there is no harm in having both.
Kick starter is needed on commuter bikes, FZ16 had removed it, but added them again so there must be some logic behind it, I rode my P150 with a dead battery for almost a year, no problems with electricals or anything once started.
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Old 2nd March 2016, 14:25   #43
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by BeantownThinker View Post
Here's a thought, why not do away completely with the shifters at the foot but instead have them on the handle like we have paddle shifters in cars?

And with regard to the kick-starter why have a manual crank in this day and age when the reliability of electric starters are proven. Should we also ask for a manual crank starters to be brought back in cars? I feel the kick-start is completely unnecessary.
Frankly why not do away with shifters itself, like in AT Cars or rather Gearless scooters.

That would be the safest solution.

I believe doing away with kick start is good, but there should be a small power attachment provided to help start the bike in case the batter dies down.

I recently tried unsuccessfully to kick start a RE 500 thunderbird with a very very flat battery. Nope couldn't do it.

Make things simpler and there would be more female bikers as well. (Instead of them having to select gearless scooters mainly presently.)

There is no pleasure or charm in shifting gears or kick-starting both should go.

Last edited by ACM : 2nd March 2016 at 14:30.
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Old 2nd March 2016, 14:49   #44
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Frankly why not do away with shifters itself, like in AT Cars or rather Gearless scooters.

That would be the safest solution.
Yeah, why not? Why are only scooters available without gears?

I think it has got to do with the imagery associated with gearless vehicles in India. Many people are of the opinion that gearless vehicles are suited only for women and any man using it will not feel, well, "MANLY".

Six months back when I was scouting around for a new car I was very clear that I wanted an Automatic only. During a discussion with a colleague of mine he says "Automatic ladies logoon ke liye theek hai. Manual mardana hota hai aur mard ko suit karta hai" (Translation "Automatic is ok for the ladies. A manual is masculine and better suited for men")

All I could do was

And manufacturers do nothing to try change this. Like cars offer an option of Automatic in their model line-up, why can't two-wheeler manufacturers offer one automatic variant in their line-up? They can push the boundaries of the market without too much of an investment.

It is encouraging to see that Honda, internationally, have started offering motorcycles with automatic transmission with their models CTX700 DCT, NM4, etc.
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Old 2nd March 2016, 14:57   #45
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Default Re: Heel-Toe Gear Shifter & Kick Start not present on high-end bikes. Why?

An Automatic (Gearless) vehicle be is a car or a bike is inherently safer than one with gears all other things being equal.

There though is a separate thread for this topic.

Yep as BeantownThinker puts it the false manly aspect is just false.

Yes at the lower end of the price point a geared 100 cc bike which is very fuel efficient is quite Ok but for bikes price above Rs. 1L. it is odd that these are not gearless.

Even during my years of riding bikes when half my age today I simply disliked changing gears in the bike or searching for the neutral.
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