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Old 25th February 2016, 09:54   #31
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

I own a CBR 205R Non ABS model (well I bought this from my friend and it did not have ABS but was installed with Steel braided lines) and I have regretted multiple times of not having bought an ABS bike. Though after changing my tires to the best Michelin Radial Tires available in the market, my stopping power has increased by leaps and bounds, it still locks the wheels.
There's nothing like ABS and I agree with everyone that IT IS A LIFE SAVER.
I was on the Verge of selling my CBR and buy the Mojo because that bike is brilliant. The only reason I havent put my money on the Mojo is because I am waiting for the ABS model to be launched this year end. Same logic applies with the Ninja 650. I love that bike so much and have seen some sweet deals for used N650s but the only problem being ABS.
I do not wanna play that gamble anymore. ABS or no new bike. Till then good old CBR zindabad.
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Old 25th February 2016, 10:19   #32
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

I don't even understand why would anyone go from ABS to a non ABS bike in the first place? That too considering the fact that Government is making ABS mandatory from next year. Not to mention, the given BHPian is moving to an even more powerful bike. 390 itself is a handful!

Surely, one can have that much patience to wait for 1 year and not sacrifice safety.

Pumping of brakes and engine braking and everything else mentioned above in this thread is all fine but a human mind / skills cannot match the speed and accuracy of a automated system in a given emergency situation no matter how much you practice.

Last edited by emperorofindia : 25th February 2016 at 10:20.
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Old 25th February 2016, 10:47   #33
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Originally Posted by emperorofindia View Post

human mind / skills cannot match the speed and accuracy of a automated system in a given emergency situation no matter how much you practice.
Please don't under-estimate human mind / skills and the fruits of practice. If what you said were true, then on a high tech motorcycle with ABS and all, every Tom, Dick and Harry could become Valentino Rossi.

Last edited by adrian : 25th February 2016 at 10:48.
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:18   #34
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Please don't under-estimate human mind / skills and the fruits of practice. If what you said were true, then on a high tech motorcycle with ABS and all, every Tom, Dick and Harry could become Valentino Rossi.
My point was only relevant for emergency braking. I never commented on the advanced skills of riding.

If there's a sudden obstacle in front of you and you are going on a high speed, would you have time to engine brake? You will obviously grab the brakes hard because that's what the human impulse is.

P. S. Engine braking though good, doesn't always result in safe stoppage because the speeds and rpms don't match and it can cause a crash. This is why slipper clutch was invented. Cheers!
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:29   #35
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Please don't under-estimate human mind / skills and the fruits of practice.
No one is underestimating, but it's a fact.

ABS systems can monitor the wheel / tyre speed 300 times a second, and then adjust brake force multiple times in that 1 second. It is humanly IMPOSSIBLE (mentally or physically) to match that. Also remember, electronics are working on precise calculations. A driver / rider would be acting on guesstimates.
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Old 25th February 2016, 11:49   #36
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

True that a computer guided braking system is far superior than human reflexes. But what is the use of higher technology if some one is not prepared to use it for an emergency situation.

For eg : Rider A is riding a motorcycle with ABS. He does not practice emergency braking techniques and does not covers his front brakes.

Rider B is a guy who rides a non ABS motorcycle. He practices emergency braking / evasive maneuvers regularly.

Which among the two rides have a chance when confronted with a below 3 second collision scenario ? My bet is that the non practicing rider A won't even touch his brake levers at the time of collision. The constantly practicing rider B may have a slight chance if he counter steers instead of braking. I was emphasizing on the elimination of survival reactions through constant practice.
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Old 25th February 2016, 12:08   #37
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Good point but I feel engine braking can be used on bikes (or cars) only in places where we anticipate or are sure we should brake and not during emergency since we dont have so much time to shift down and down and down. So most cases it is used on the Ghat sections when you descent. If you use brakes there, it will heat up and end up with no brakes!!!
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Originally Posted by emperorofindia View Post
P. S. Engine braking though good, doesn't always result in safe stoppage because the speeds and rpms don't match and it can cause a crash. This is why slipper clutch was invented. Cheers!
Rev matching is the solution here. I've always practiced rev-matching and after moving from cars to bikes, I realized it is far easier to rev match on bikes. I urge everyone to get the hang of this. Rev matching helps one drop gears crisply and immediately so it can indeed be used in emergency situations. Rev-matching down the gears also helps make the bike more taut and ready for high speed directional changes. I have benefited from this technique many times more recently on my new KTM RC390 while two dunderheads decided to cross the main-road that I was hurtling down, in their car without even looking to see me coming. Rev-matched down a couple of gears while braking and just as they moved enough for me to swerve behind them, I saw the gap and took it at the last moment. Narrowly escaped a frightful, possibly fatal accident and also learnt that bikers are simply not taken into account by other motorists and that I must keep it slow within the city

Last edited by IshaanIan : 25th February 2016 at 12:34.
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Old 25th February 2016, 13:04   #38
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

The slipper clutch is great but under hard braking, it'll not give you the required amount of engine braking to really supplement your braking. However, the first tendency during braking is to jam the brakes and that's where trouble begins. I have been riding for quite a bit but at times i still do it. That's where one needs to break the habit and understand how to bring in technique without panic. I could go on and on about the entire topic actually. It's safer to go into a corner slowly and then accelerate once reaching the apex than go in too hot and having to brake in a corner. Braking and downshifting while inside the corner are a big nono. You should have smooth throttle control all the way till the exit of the corner. In Keith's words "Once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled open evenly, constantly till the remainder of the turn" which in turn will help weight distribution and traction. Sudden deceleration with correct body position will help you keep traction and allow you to control the skid.

Last edited by Arch-Angel : 25th February 2016 at 13:10.
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Old 25th February 2016, 13:12   #39
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Originally Posted by Arch-Angel View Post
The slipper clutch is great but under hard braking, it'll not give you the required amount of engine braking to really supplement your braking...
Doesn't the slipper clutch 'slip' only on the brink of the wheels getting locked ? How does it affect usage of engine braking during deceleration then ?
Personally, I do not find the slipper clutch adversely affecting engine braking in anyway.
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Old 25th February 2016, 13:31   #40
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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Originally Posted by Sojogator View Post
Doesn't the slipper clutch 'slip' only on the brink of the wheels getting locked ?
It allows the clutch to slip till the RPM of the engine to the speed are in synchronism. Assume you are braking hard and going down a couple of gears, isnt the RPM rising? This causes the engine braking effect to kick in. However, the slipper clutch is counter to this as it allows the clutch to slip. There is a threshold but it does reduce it.

It's more of a driver aid actually and helps the bike.

Last edited by Arch-Angel : 25th February 2016 at 13:33.
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Old 25th February 2016, 14:05   #41
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

Thank you all for the response. I am learning quite a lot from the valuable resources that you have shared. As many of you have suggested, I am most certainly in the market for a ride that is equipped with ABS. After riding a motorcycle that is equipped with ABS, it has become a mandatory requirement for me. However, I want to develop my skill as a rider, which was the reason for my query.

@emperorofindia, thanks for the reference. Now I know the difference between the braking technique meant for public roads(Cadence braking) versus the braking technique meant for race tracks(Threshold braking), well, at least in theory.

@saket77, that was a simple but practical explanation of weight transfer during braking. I am now trying be aware of weight transfer and how it affects balance while riding. I was aware of counter steering, yet it is informative to explore the resources available online.

@hothatchaway, I don't like the Versys' look. Benelli is also expected to equip the BN600i with ABS in March, so I am waiting to see if Kawasaki equip the ER6N. If they don't, I am getting the BN.

@BlackPearl, thanks for the reference to the informative article.

@sam_sant2005, most certainly. The bike has to be equipped with ABS and Yes, the D390 is my first motorcycle.

@RubberSideDown, thanks for sharing.

@navin_v8, thanks for the clarity.
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Old 25th February 2016, 15:38   #42
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

Since you are planning to buy a new bike, please do invest in buying a good protective gear. I cannot stress more on the importance of having a protective gear in our road conditions.

You have asked for difference between braking on a normal road and a race track. The scenario is entirely different. On a race track you can pre-learn on how to brake and implement the same, but on a normal road you can't predict. You never know. Hence ABS will be a great advantage. There are things like rev matching and counter steering used while track riding (and to an extent on the roads) but during emergency braking, most of the times, natural instinct is to slam the brakes.

Using front and rear brakes, from my experience I start braking with the rear while I gradually increase the input of the front. Towards the end more of front brakes gets worked than the rear ones. The reason I used to do so is cos if your handle bar is steady then front brakes very less to no chance of skidding as compared to rear. Plus the braking experience is very confidence inspiring for me when done so. (I was also afraid of the rear wheels getting locked as all the bikes I have owned/driven were non ABS)

Tar/concrete roads gives you more confidence to brake unlike unpaved (dirt) roads. I engine brake as I use the brakes on dirt roads. Also I drive on a lower gears (depending on the speed of course) which gives a better feeling of control on the bike.

The best way to brake is using engine braking with the conventional braking techniques. Most of the people I know use/suggested me to do the same. The best thing is that you don't need to be tapping the gears later on and can zoom off because you are already in the right gear. So that's an added advantage.

Techniques like counter steering and rev matching are great skills. Make sure you practice in an empty stretch cos you don't want to get into trouble practicing them. Especially down shift rev matching makes a lovely noise, you will love doing it all the time.

Wishing you safe miles
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Old 25th February 2016, 20:39   #43
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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In the past couple of months, my urge to upgrade to a bigger motorcycle has been getting stronger by the day.

I have always had my heart set on the Kawasaki Ninja 650, which I believe is the perfect fit for my requirement.

Progressing from a single-cylinder lightweight motorcycle to a twin-cylinder motorcycle with a kerb weight of more than two hundred kilos, I am aware of some of the changes that I will have to make to my riding style. That said, my biggest concern with the upgrade is braking.
Monstertorque, you've had some great responses to your questions from many of the forum members. Let me give you a different perspective:
- you have been riding bikes for a while, and the Duke that you have is no slouch! Do not worry yourself too much about braking and the perfect way to brake. Go ahead and buy the bike and live your dreams!

Moving from a small capacity bike to a larger one (or even a much bulkier one) is not as big a challenge as you think. I learned to ride on my father's yezdi 250, and the first bike I owned was a 220 kg suzuki katana 750 in the US. I had no problems riding the bike (note that I am not a big guy - just an average sized Indian). I later on moved to a more powerful bike (Yamaha R1) and the transition was even smoother. All this was before ABS, traction control etc had seen dawn of the day on motorcycles

So my advice to you is to go ahead and buy the bike of your dreams! Apply the 70-30 rule (70% front brake, 30% rear) and you should be good. Yes, if ABS is available - it is a good option, and should be purchased. But the riding style, good riding practices etc are far more important to keep yourself safe on a motorcycle.

Best,
anandpkumar
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Old 25th February 2016, 20:44   #44
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

(Quite) some time back, IIRC in a D390 thread, someone made a suggestion that if a bike is ABS equipped, for best braking, one should grab a handful of brake, rather than "squeeze, transfer weight, then squeeze more." Would like to know peoples opinion on this.

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Old 25th February 2016, 20:53   #45
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Default Re: Motorcycles: Improving Braking Skills

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I have been constantly improving riding techniques for sometime now, been following 80/20 rule for almost 5 years, but when we push our machine on unpredictable surface it does surprise us a lot, some long ramps seem to be maintained poorly where 80/20 rule would case the front to slip. I might be wrong but combination of rear disc and weird character of MRF might be the reason! Duke owners kindly shed some light on this issue.
I have ridden both, 390 and 200, Duke. The stock MRF tires are the problem. I had the chance to ride a friend's 200 that wore Michelin Pilot Street Radials. Traction was much better, but he felt that the ride quality became worse.
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