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Old 23rd June 2016, 16:45   #1
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Default Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

As part of its intentions to curb rising pollution levels in major cities of the country, the Government of India will start a pilot project for installing CNG kits in two-wheelers.

Under the 'Hawa Badlo' (translation: Clean the Air) movement, the pilot project is a joint initiative of the Central Government and the country's largest CNG distribution company, Indraprastha Gas Ltd (IGL). The program also has inputs from GAIL (Gas Authority of India Limited). A total of 50 motorcycles will be equipped with ARAI certified CNG kits.

The aforementioned pilot project will be launched today during an event at CNG station, CGO complex, New Delhi.

Source: GaadiWaadi

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Old 24th June 2016, 00:01   #2
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

You can be sure Indraprastha Gas Ltd (IGL) isn't doing this out of the goodness of their heart, or to reduce pollution either.
They see MONEY to be made here.

As I don't live in India, I really don't know. Is there a large number of autos there which use CNG? Are there a lot of places where someone can refill their tank with CNG when it is low?

In my area, there are a few places that can refuel autos with CNG but it is a major annoyance to the owner to try to find them.

CNG in autos also has our Government trying to figure out a way to tax it like it was petrol. (We pay a per gallon tax to pay for roadwork and whatever other cause the Government decides to spend it on.)

Because they haven't found a good way to tax CNG, they have chosen to increase the yearly license fee on CNG and electric powered vehicles to off set the loss of tax money from the sale of petrol.

And, not knowing how far you or I drive, "How do they do this?" you ask.

They pick a number out of the air and say that everyone from the guy who drives tens of thousands of miles to the person that only drives 1 mile to the store and back once a week must pay like a person who drives 12,000 miles (19,400 km) a year.

So, how would this work with motorcycles?
If your Government is like my Government, we riders would have to pay for the 12,000 mile automobile rate like any other car or truck does.

Seems like everyone is making money except for the working people.

OK. OK. I'll crawl back into my corner and be quite but I thought you might like to know this information.
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Old 24th June 2016, 00:46   #3
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

I Saw two wheelers fitted with CNG in Auto Expo in 2011 i think. For scooters it was very easy. It had a 2 or 3 KG tank in their storage compartment. For bikes it needed extra mountings for the Cylinder. However with Such a small cylinder the users will have to get it refilled everyday I believe. Not sure if it is feasible for the user.
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Old 24th June 2016, 01:01   #4
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I think this can be implemented on scooters quite properly. The under-seat storage can be utilised to fit a small tank of perhaps 4-5 kg. If we assume a petrol mileage of 55kmpl, we can assume 60 km/kg of gas. That's about 240-300 kms range. I'm sure people won't mind the queues if they get significant cost saving. Running cost will go in some paise/km!


Yes this might cause frequent refuels, but people will definitely consider this option.
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Old 24th June 2016, 03:56   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwasp View Post
I think this can be implemented on scooters quite properly. The under-seat storage can be utilised to fit a small tank of perhaps 4-5 kg. If we assume a petrol mileage of 55kmpl, we can assume 60 km/kg of gas. That's about 240-300 kms range. I'm sure people won't mind the queues if they get significant cost saving. Running cost will go in some paise/km!


Yes this might cause frequent refuels, but people will definitely consider this option.
Hey,

I am not sure how much familiar you are with CNG. A 5kg tank can never come in the underseat storage area of the scooter. Max that I think possible is 3 Kg. And you won't be able to fill up more than 2 kg in it. Even if it gives a mileage of 75km/kg then also it will have to be re filled very frequently.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:35   #6
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

The present setup of CNG stations is unable to cater the increasing demand of CNG based four wheelers and commercial vehicles. A friend of mind spends an average of 30 minutes per filling and thus most of the time runs his car on petrol because of this excessive time requirement at the CNG stations.

Why don't the administration look at per km emission of pollutants from vehicles as the basis of fuel switch exercise.

- Two wheelers necessarily use petrol thus not use subsidized fuel (if one has to argue use of diesel).
- The average operational efficiency of more than 90% of two wheelers is in excess of 50 km/litre resulting in a small environmental footprint.
- Space is a major constraint in 2 wheelers and thus bi-fuel arrangements will take away whatever small storage is possible in them.
- Majority of two wheelers (I would assume more than 98%) use carburetor and not present generation technologies like MPFI etc. making it open for all sorts of permutation and combinations by road side mechanics (whenever there is a problem in the CNG system) which is dangerous.

What is the agenda behind pushing something for which the market is not ready and mature? NG is also imported similar to other fossil fuels in the country - there is no gain as such atleast in the short to medium term.
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Old 24th June 2016, 10:41   #7
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

According to hindustan Times

"ES Ranganathan, managing director, IGL, said that two CNG cylinders of 4.8 litre capacity will be installed in the storage space in front, and the regulator will be installed on top of the engine. This will not only bring down emission levels by almost 70%, it will also be an economical option.
On 1kg of CNG, the user can travel up to 120km. The price of 1kg CNG is 37.02. The mileage of a petrol-run scooter is 40km with a litre of petrol costing 65. The cost of the retrofit is 14,500."

For now retrofit option is available for Honda Activa and other scooters and there is only one distributor in the market for now.
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Old 24th June 2016, 16:19   #8
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

In a separate order today, Govt of Delhi has temporarily banned all retro fitment of CNG kits on existing cars citing safety issues and here a new scheme is being launched for two wheelers.

I am just
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Old 24th June 2016, 17:08   #9
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrashantPahwa View Post
On 1kg of CNG, the user can travel up to 120km.
If the mileage is 120Km/Kg then the per Km cost is like ~30 paise per Km

A 60 litre tank in alto/wagonR fills ~7.5-8Kg CNG if pressure is ~200 at the pump. If the scooter is fitted with 4.8 litre capacity I wonder how much Kg will it be able to fill.
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Old 24th June 2016, 21:30   #10
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

I am rather skeptical about both the implementation and probable effect of this initiative:

- It may be possible to fit the CNG kit in some gearless scooters. But where do you put this on a skinny 100 - 125 cc motorcycle? Weld some jugaad brackets and leave it hanging out in the open?
- How many kms would I have to ride a scooter to break even my cost of installation, taking average petrol fuel consumption @ 45 kmpl?
- CNG can be a rather volatile fuel as it has proven itself in the past. I am sure that there wont really be a thorough "road worthy" check by a govt agency (think MOT in the UK) and I therefore am left at the mercy and expertise of the local dealer / installer
- The above situation is all the more scary when you put a 2 wheeler in the picture. The CNG tank here does not enjoy a metal cage around itself like a car. In the unfortunate event of a crash (no dearth of those in our country) I cant help but think these would be like grenades with their pins out. It gets progressively worse if think about those local jugaad type brackets on motorcycles that I mentioned earlier
- Most 2 wheelers on the roads are 100 - 125 cc motorcycles and not gearless scooters. At least in my observation, most gearless scooters are usually used for grocery shopping and very short trips; while these little motorcycles do everything from ferrying goods, families of 4, do commute duties etc. A kit that will not include these high mileage motorcycles will not really do much good
- Most CNG vehicle owners report a loss in performance and more wear and tear of moving parts. Am pretty sure it wont be any different for 2 wheelers. I; and I am pretty sure many wont be in favor of the same

Also, the article says - "A total of 50 motorcycles will be equipped with ARAI certified CNG kits"

What for? Sale to customers? Testing? To ferry people around like bike taxis?

Another weird and vague scheme IMO
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Old 24th June 2016, 23:01   #11
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaJim View Post
You can be sure Indraprastha Gas Ltd (IGL) isn't doing this out of the goodness of their heart, or to reduce pollution either.
They see MONEY to be made here
This is just a good news / PR effort for central govt. Next to zero money to be made here for IGL. I wont be surprised if the cost of CNG barely covers the cost of service. Feel free to do the math.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkg View Post
In a separate order today, Govt of Delhi has temporarily banned all retro fitment of CNG kits on existing cars citing safety issues and here a new scheme is being launched for two wheelers.

I am just
Central O&G minister is not the same as Govt of Delhi.
Puzzling and retrograde all the same.

Nomad bhai, this post seems terribly ill informed and assumes the worst case possible in every page. Completely unlike your regular positive posts. Why be so prejudiced and negative thinking in the "pilot phase"? IMHO its just unnecessary publicization of a nascent pilot, nothing concrete for the end user as of now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
I am rather skeptical about both the implementation and probable effect of this initiative:

- It may be possible to fit the CNG kit in some gearless scooters. But where do you put this on a skinny 100 - 125 cc motorcycle? Weld some jugaad brackets and leave it hanging out in the open?
Why make random guesses without proper research?
- How many kms would I have to ride a scooter to break even my cost of installation, taking average petrol fuel consumption @ 45 kmpl?
When the technology is in "pilot phase", this question is fairly premature.
- CNG can be a rather volatile fuel as it has proven itself in the past. I am sure that there wont really be a thorough "road worthy" check by a govt agency (think MOT in the UK) and I therefore am left at the mercy and expertise of the local dealer / installer
Seriously, bro? Do you expect the government to do a bad jugaad? Please bother to research the extant rules on CNG retrofitment. Volatility has less to do with fuel safety. You have 16 years of CNG four wheeler usage in Delhi - no such linkage exists.
- The above situation is all the more scary when you put a 2 wheeler in the picture. The CNG tank here does not enjoy a metal cage around itself like a car. In the unfortunate event of a crash (no dearth of those in our country) I cant help but think these would be like grenades with their pins out. It gets progressively worse if think about those local jugaad type brackets on motorcycles that I mentioned earlier
Seriously? Please google up images of CNG car crashes. It has not been a grenade in all these years, not any more than petrol or diesel fuel tanks. FYI - CNG tanks are made much much stronger than the sheet metal of most cars. Please research this fact. The bigger issue is whether such a solid cylinder will hurt the riders.
- Most 2 wheelers on the roads are 100 - 125 cc motorcycles and not gearless scooters. At least in my observation, most gearless scooters are usually used for grocery shopping and very short trips; while these little motorcycles do everything from ferrying goods, families of 4, do commute duties etc. A kit that will not include these high mileage motorcycles will not really do much good
Fair point.
- Most CNG vehicle owners report a loss in performance and more wear and tear of moving parts. Am pretty sure it wont be any different for 2 wheelers. I; and I am pretty sure many wont be in favor of the same.
Of course -this is not to cover every single user, but to develop the technology for two wheelers so that the high mileage users who wish so, can move to CNG.

Also, the article says - "A total of 50 motorcycles will be equipped with ARAI certified CNG kits"

What for? Sale to customers? Testing? To ferry people around like bike taxis?
You only answered it man - What else would they do in the "pilot phase"?

Another weird and vague scheme IMO
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Old 24th June 2016, 23:17   #12
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Nomad bhai, this post seems terribly ill informed and assumes the worst case possible in every page
Thanks for pointing out the obvious follies in my post. You learn something new everyday

These are indeed early days and one must wait for the events to unfold. Its probably because I am myself never going to install CNG on my bikes ever and hence am looking at this with petrol coloured glasses

But I still wonder, where on a bike will you mount that kit? There simply is no space

And I do stand by my comments on the safety aspect, although would rephrase my sentence. As a fuel, CNG is not volatile. But its those cheap, ill fitted kits that usually cause life threatening instances. The obvious cash crunched commuter public might adopt these unsafe practices to save some INR. If there are proper controls around this aspect then this point is moot

Enjoy your weekend!

Last edited by Urban_Nomad : 24th June 2016 at 23:19.
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Old 24th June 2016, 23:27   #13
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

Quote:
Originally Posted by subhro1988 View Post
A 60 litre tank in alto/wagonR fills ~7.5-8Kg CNG if pressure is ~200 at the pump. If the scooter is fitted with 4.8 litre capacity I wonder how much Kg will it be able to fill.
Exactly. And its on a rare day that you get 200 points of pressure. With a 4.5 liter tank, you should expect a realistic 0.5-0.6kg of gas at a time. Going by the claimed figure of 120km/kg, we get a range of about 60km before you need a refill. That is woefully inadequate.


On a related note, the CNG infrastructure in Delhi is stretched as it is. Serpentine queues and half an hour of waiting times are common. I shudder to think what will happen if thousands of unruly two wheelers are added to the mix.
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:19   #14
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

My two cents on this initiative for converting 2 wheelers to CNG-


1. Most of the two wheelers in India are carburetted and not FI. Which means that the CNG kits fitted would be of open loop type. This would mean a power drop of almost 30%.

Most of the scooters / bikes sold are 100-150 cc, and a 30% power drop wouldn't be acceptable.

2. Add to it the weight of the cylinder, which makes the low end further bad.

3. The cylinders are fitted behind the handle bar, which means that the handle bar is prone to become heavy.

4. In case of 4 wheelers, the CNG tank is secured in the boot and is away from the occupants. In case of two wheelers, the CNG tank is exposed, and increases the chance of injury to the occupants, in case of an accident.

5. The most important part - cost saving. Traditionally CNG gives approx 40% more mileage to a km, as compared to petrol.

Petrol cost is 70 rs per km, and assuming a mileage of 60 km/l - the per km cost works out to Rs. 1.16/km

CNG costs 42/kg in Mumbai. Assuming a mileage of 84 km / kg - the per km cost works out to Rs. 0.5 / km.

The net saving is around 0.66 / km - Aggressively. I'm pretty sure it'll be much lesser.

Even if an average mumbaikar rides his bike for 1000 km a month - translates to approx 33-34 km daily. He saves around 500 per month (after deducting additional maintenance and insurance costs etc - approx).

The CNG tank in auto rickshaws is 3 kg I think. In bikes it will be max 1kg, to the best of my understanding - which means that the rider has to refill it every 2nd day.

I'm not too sure what is the additional cost involved in the CNG kit over and above the normal petrol bike - even if it is 10000 additional, considering a saving of 500 per month, it'll take the rider approx 20-24 months to recover the cost (assuming a ride of 1000 km per month).

To the best of my understanding - it doesn't make sense financially or practically.
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:25   #15
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Default Re: Government's pilot project to equip 2-wheelers with CNG kits

Latest updates on the project:
  • Pilot program is limited to Delhi.
  • It is under the supervision of Indraprastha gas and GAIL India.
  • 50 Activas wih CNG kits are given to Domino's Pizza deliver boys for FOC for research purposes.
  • Each Activa has 2 cylinders with a capacity of 4.8 Liters / 1 kg of CNG per cylinder.
  • Cylinders are manufactures by M/S Ituk Manufacturing India.
  • Approvals received from ARAI, Delhi transport department, Petroleum & Explosives Safety Organization (PESO), International center for automotive technology (ICAT).
  • Claims of CNG cylinder manufacturer: 75% less Hydrocarbon emission, 20% less Carbon emissions.
  • Estimated running cost benefits: With 120km range in a single fill, The projected running cost is 61 Paise/km against 1.3 Rupees/km for Petrol Activas.
Given the pizza delivery time pressure and delivery boys' unique bike riding style, just hoping that the vehicle operating knowledge has been effectively transferred to these bikers as CNG cylinders in the front glove box carry great risk in case of head on collision. Best wishes to the project

Source:https://motoroctane.com/honda-activa-cng

Last edited by MunnabhaiMBBS : 27th June 2016 at 10:27.
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