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Old 31st July 2017, 13:10   #31
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

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Old 2nd August 2017, 15:15   #32
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.
If you carefully examine the video, you can see that the front wheel slipped while the fork was fully compressed due to sharp braking. This lead to the steering handlebar to tilt and the rider lost control and fell. ABS would've for sure helped for preventing locking of wheels but the guy was also leaning in which case the normal ABS would've been inadequate. I believe the bike in the video had an ABS reason is I could see the wheel not fully locked but spinning despite of sharp braking. This is where cornering ABS comes into play which is found on some high end bikes. It is a very good technology with regards to safety.

The knee injury could've been avoided had the rider worn a good quality knee guard.

In case of your fall remember to use a combination of both front and rear brake while braking on a heavy motorcycle like Royal Enfield. These bikes are nose heavy and nose dive on sharp braking. I use a combination of 60(front):40(rear) braking ratio. Also I could see from your pics that you shared on another thread about mounting Himalayan windshield on your CL500 that you are using a three rod horizontal crash bar as well as diamond crash guard. I had a couple of falls and I vouch by the diamond crash guard in being very effective albeit my bike also has rear crash guards. Also wearing good quality certified knee guards would have prevented injury to your knees.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 2nd August 2017 at 15:16.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 16:43   #33
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
If you carefully examine the video, you can see that the front wheel slipped while the fork was fully compressed due to sharp braking. This lead to the steering handlebar to tilt and the rider lost control and fell. ABS would've for sure helped for preventing locking of wheels but the guy was also leaning in which case the normal ABS would've been inadequate. I believe the bike in the video had an ABS reason is I could see the wheel not fully locked but spinning despite of sharp braking. This is where cornering ABS comes into play which is found on some high end bikes. It is a very good technology with regards to safety.
Yes absolutely correct sir.

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The knee injury could've been avoided had the rider worn a good quality knee guard.
It surely would have helped, but since it was a local place (the theatre where the accident took place is about 2 kms from my house) I didn't think of wearing knee guards and stuff.

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
In case of your fall remember to use a combination of both front and rear brake while braking on a heavy motorcycle like Royal Enfield. These bikes are nose heavy and nose dive on sharp braking. I use a combination of 60(front):40(rear) braking ratio. Also I could see from your pics that you shared on another thread about mounting Himalayan windshield on your CL500 that you are using a three rod horizontal crash bar as well as diamond crash guard. I had a couple of falls and I vouch by the diamond crash guard in being very effective albeit my bike also has rear crash guards. Also wearing good quality certified knee guards would have prevented injury to your knees.

The three rod horizontal crash guard was immediately changed to the diamond one after the accident.

On all our long rides ironically it was me who always was of the opinion of wearing full gear, but unfortunately in the domestic place like 2 kms away from my house I guess no one would have thought of wearing the guards and jackets (which is another point of discussion, a very important one though) and met with this accident which led me to think about ABS.

Although concluding the topic on this thread I am convinced:

Yes - ABS sure would have helped
Yes - Riding with gear helps

And also no matter how experienced or skilled rider you are, the roads are filled with people who will do all sorts of things without thinking about the consequences. Some people die with full gear, fully skilled riding and safest bike loaded with technology, others go un-scraped with none of the above too.

Thanks to all for the valuable insights and experiences that you all have shared.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 16:54   #34
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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It surely would have helped, but since it was a local place (the theatre where the accident took place is about 2 kms from my house) I didn't think of wearing knee guards and stuff.
Mate I know its difficult but remember to follow ATGATT(All The Gear All The Time) principle. Ride safe.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 19:50   #35
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
Mate I know its difficult but remember to follow ATGATT(All The Gear All The Time) principle. Ride safe.
Well said. No one ever gets on their bike expecting to get into an accident on that ride itself.

Also, statistically, the most dangerous places to ride (the places where you're most likely to crash) is close to your house. You feel very familiar with the area, you've been there countless times, so you let your guard down. Or maybe you're on the way home after a long day (or long ride or trip) and you're exhausted and almost home, so your concentration and awareness drop, and you let your guard down thinking about your dinner or having a hot bath and relaxing, and this is the kind of mental state that often ends in a crash.

tl;dr ATGATT, it can be inconvenient but it's worth it. And if you do it all the time as a habit, it starts to feel natural and normal to always do it
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Old 2nd August 2017, 21:43   #36
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ATGATT is practically possible only when Riding is on Special Occassion / Leisure / Pleasure rides..

For everyday situation.. it's best to commute in a Cage

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great View Post
This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

For Braking while turning, one needs "Corner Optimized ABS".. something that has started appearing only on high (expensive) bikes for now.

On bikes without ABS / with normal ABS: While negotiating turns it's safer to downshift and let engine braking slow the bike safely.

If one is Skilled (or simply Stupid) enough, one can try to POWER SLIDE the bike by using only the Rear brakes to lock the Rear wheel temporarily and make the corner without falling over.

But for that one would need a bike without ABS On in the rear/ ABS in off road mode/No ABS on bike.. and more importantly a stupid rider.

Correction to my previous post: Not Power Slide.. what I meant above was controlled slide by locking the Rear brakes

Last edited by Vid6639 : 3rd August 2017 at 08:38. Reason: merging posts. Pls. use the edit option when replying within 30mins.
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Old 6th August 2017, 17:32   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payeng View Post
ATGATT is practically possible only when Riding is on Special Occassion / Leisure / Pleasure rides..

For everyday situation.. it's best to commute in a Cage



For Braking while turning, one needs "Corner Optimized ABS".. something that has started appearing only on high (expensive) bikes for now.

On bikes without ABS / with normal ABS: While negotiating turns it's safer to downshift and let engine braking slow the bike safely.

If one is Skilled (or simply Stupid) enough, one can try to POWER SLIDE the bike by using only the Rear brakes to lock the Rear wheel temporarily and make the corner without falling over.

But for that one would need a bike without ABS On in the rear/ ABS in off road mode/No ABS on bike.. and more importantly a stupid rider.

Correction to my previous post: Not Power Slide.. what I meant above was controlled slide by locking the Rear brakes
Hi
Just saw some videos of the newly launched BMW GS 1200 Rallye abroad. Rallye being the latest addition of 2017 BMW 1200 GS. Riders testing this bike on offroad tracks said they prefer single channel ABS. Front wheel ABS only. This way they are in better control and on purpose lock rear wheel while the front is still turning.
Probably this is what you referring to in your post above.
But surely this isn't much use on daily basis on city roads. My guess it's an off road thing and that's why the feature is available in Rallye not the city/ urban model of the BMW GS 1200.
As far as cornering ABS goes...yes currently available on premium bikes only. In India we haven't got front ABS on all Indian manufactured two wheelers firstly because of safety mindset and second to that because of increase in cost. Cornering ABS is a thing of the future for now.
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Old 6th August 2017, 23:50   #38
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.
No, it does not help. I fell from Apache and CBR the same way while cornering (I was not leaning as much as the rider in the video and a bit worse road condition in both cases). In both cases, I was doing about 20 to 30 kmph; and was lucky to escape only with light bruises.

Cornering ABS with Traction Control System designed for bikes might help but those things will take time to trickle down to mass market two wheelers.

A lot of people who have not experienced any fall like this from a two wheeler might wonder as to how you could fall like this, or how could you just apply front brake when you know it might cause the front wheel to lock up. Well to them, I would say that it all happens in a flash, a matter of seconds and it feels like a blur. When you see something mid corner that requires you to apply brakes at the moment, you instantly grab the front brake which is far easier to apply than jabbing on your foot for rear brake. It is like a reflex action. Now, better education or experience tells us to go against this reflex action of ours. So, we have to train ourselves not to go for the front brake or even the rear brake with full force, rather apply both brakes simultaneously and gradually increase force (yes, even in that split second, and I know it sounds counter-intuitive!).

Now, the key to braking in a corner (if you want to stop or massively reduce speed) is that one has to continue to reduce lean and straighten the handlebar as soon as brakes are applied. I understand that if you start reducing lean and continue to straighten you handlebar mid-corner, you will slowly be going in a direction that will take you off the road onto the run off area, but also, at the same time brake pressure has to gradually increase leading you to a complete stop.

I think rider on bike numbered 63 in this video illustrates in a few seconds what I am taking an essay above to explain. From 1:17 onward, you see how the rider slowly reduces his lean, straightens the handlebar and applies brakes to swerve around that crashed bike.


I wish I had someone telling me these things rather than figuring it out the hard way! I wish someone with even greater experience speaks up here, if I am taking the wrong lesson from this experience.
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Old 7th August 2017, 11:34   #39
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Default Re: Some questions on ABS in motorcycles

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Originally Posted by joybird View Post
Hi

Just saw some videos of the newly launched BMW GS 1200 Rallye abroad. Rallye being the latest addition of 2017 BMW 1200 GS. Riders testing this bike on offroad tracks said they prefer single channel ABS. Front wheel ABS only. This way they are in better control and on purpose lock rear wheel while the front is still turning.

Probably this is what you referring to in your post above..

Exactly the thing I have been telling for long on this Forum.

For me, my choice of ABS is Single Channel ABS/ABS on the Front wheels. I do not need ABS on the rear wheels.

1. Since I hardly use the rear to brake on normal (smooth roads)

2. Unless I am riding on gravel, loose soil or while turning (in which case I might need the rear wheels to lock for controlled slowing of the bike)

But ABS on the front is necessary since I can never control a front wheel lock Nor do I know of anyone who can control front wheel.

If one needs ABS on the rear wheels on normal (smooth) roads, that means that he uses the rear brakes to stop. In which case, one needs to learn how to brake properly on a Motorcycle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sidhu_hs View Post
When you see something mid corner that requires you to apply brakes at the moment, you instantly grab the front brake which is far easier to apply than jabbing on your foot for rear brake. It is like a reflex action. Now, better education or experience tells us to go against this reflex action of ours.

So, we have to train ourselves not to go for the front brake or even the rear brake with full force, rather apply both brakes simultaneously and gradually increase force (yes, even in that split second, and I know it sounds counter-intuitive!).

I wish I had someone telling me these things rather than figuring it out the hard way! I wish someone with even greater experience speaks up here, if I am taking the wrong lesson from this experience.

While In a Corner, the BEST way to cut down speed is to downshift and Let ENGINE BRAKING do its job. Front Brakes during turns is very dangerous (even with Conventional ABS/Non Corner Optimized ABS).





Last edited by payeng : 7th August 2017 at 11:48.
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