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Old 3rd September 2007, 16:26   #16
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When Bajaj Auto themselve acknowledge that "the application of twin spark plug is a known technology extensively in use all over the world for several decades", then why all this fuss?
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Old 3rd September 2007, 16:49   #17
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Then better let Ducati sue the Bajajs as they invented the Twin Plug tech way back in 70's and very soon all small Hondas are also coming with twin plug.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 17:05   #18
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[quote=BaCkSeAtDrIVeR;551008
@Zappo patents are granted for inventions. "Designs" are granted registrations - like design of the headlamp, suitcase, pen, etc. A method of getting ink into the nib in a pen, is the kind of thing which gets patent. Design of the steering wheel is another thing which gets registered. The erstwhile Bajaj tempo were sued by Tatas for copyihg the curved two spoke design of steering wheel of Tata buses.
[/quote]

Uh! There is a difference between your design and mine, so to say.

On a serious note, when I said design it does not mean the design of a headlamp or suitcase. That is design in its artistic sense. Of course they are registered. Even the graphics and labels in packaging are designs and are registered by their respective owners.

In the context in which I said design it means something deeper, more intense. Say India 'designs' its GSLV rocket or a reprocessing plant for the nuclear fuel. These are all designs (and not inventions) which are different from the existing designs and hence are unique. So IF bajaj indeed designed a unique way to put in two plugs in a small IC engine which was never tried earlier because of problems due to the limitation of the size of the engine then that is something which is not artistic (like designing a suitcase as you said) but something more technical and hence may very well deserve a patent.

Coming back to this case, well, coming days are going to be interesting. It looks set to become a landmark case if pursued by both the parties. TVS is not gonna take it all lying down considering they got all those awards (demming award?) for their true engineering skills and corporate ethics.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 20:04   #19
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When Bajaj has such a patent then TVS should have been cautious about it even before it was raised. Comeon Afterall why should Bajaj invest some money on getting the patent rights for something which is already there?? Its just that they can make their R&D team get going and stop anyone else reproducing the technology apart from them in our country. Its not about uniqueness of the technology from Bajaj. it is just that they have got the rights and the patent(can be said as ownership in this case) of releasing the technology in our country before someone else.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 21:53   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Doesnt it really come down to using two plugs per cylinder? What is unique (wrt Bajaj) about it?
They say they hold patent for the application of twin spark technology in smaller engines. Have read that most companies gave up on giving twin spark to small engines due to complexities in head design.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 22:56   #21
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Would I be a bad person if I reveal that I've personally spotted (from a distance) a Pulsar being dissected at the TVS Motors plant in Hosur, when I'd visited there on official work a year back ? My colleagues apparently saw a CBZ Extreme undergoing similar treatment a few months back during their visit.

Now, I'm too uninformed and uneducated abt the 2 wheeler business to comment on whether this practice is unique to TVS or is a norm amongst all bike mfrs. Therefore, my above observation is exactly that - an observation and not an inference of anything.
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Old 3rd September 2007, 23:17   #22
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@the mag

It is a standard work procedure of all automotive and bike companies to buy and dissect what their competitor provides.

It was said that the present Sonata was built keeping the Audi A6 (previous Gen) as a comparo. I know for a fact that Hero Honda used to buy Yamaha's to compare chassis technology. Bajaj Used to buy LML scooters for comparing the Anti Dive front suspension that LML bought in first.

Now the question in this case is ... are TVS doing what the chinese are doing to the mercedes Smart and ripping off the design or checking out the competion to see where the competion is better and they can do better
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Old 4th September 2007, 00:18   #23
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Maggie - That's a common practice for all automotive companies - 2 wheeler or 4 wheeler. Nothing surprising there, they just like to size up how far their competitors have gone with the latest offering.
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Old 4th September 2007, 03:37   #24
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Its standard practice in the auto industry and its called Benchmarking. There even are third party companies which do this kind of work and pass on the information to any manufacturer for a fee.
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Old 4th September 2007, 09:12   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compenn View Post
Guys just generally if we forget the Bajaj and TVS tell me your views on "Isn't Patent on any technology(or something else) more harmful than good".

It can create monoply in the market for a particular manufaturer!! Imagine if everything that we use today starts getting patented what would it be like.
What do you think Qualcomm has done? they have patented CDMA technology, that everyone has to pay them royalties in order to produce phones.

Bajaj's twin spark - either created by a single spark plug or by two spark-plugs , IMHO, can't be patented as it is very generic. however- the details of the patent can include the angle between the spark plugs- or the timing between the sparks.
Also there is the process patent angle that one needs to explore.
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Old 4th September 2007, 11:41   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Now, I'm too uninformed and uneducated abt the 2 wheeler business to comment on whether this practice is unique to TVS or is a norm amongst all bike mfrs. Therefore, my above observation is exactly that - an observation and not an inference of anything.
Bro, this is common in most fields, bikes, cars, electronic products.. this is done by every marketing and R&D team world over to access the competition. Nothing wrong in that.
TVS is absolutely right in questioning the patent. prior art is the use of twin spark plugs, Bajaj has only patented application on small engines. I wonder how Bajaj got a world wide patent for application alone. I mean there is nothing novel in what Bajaj has done. For a patent to be granted, idea/improvements of an idea has to be novel even though part of the idea was prior art..By patenting twin spark technology Bajaj is trying to monopolise the indian 2 wheeler industry.
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Old 4th September 2007, 12:20   #27
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But, I saw that TVS is going to sue Bajaj over copyright issues in yesterday's TOI. Wasnt too interested in it, so just skipped the whole part. So who is suing who? I am confused now!
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Old 4th September 2007, 14:24   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
Maggie - That's a common practice for all automotive companies - 2 wheeler or 4 wheeler. Nothing surprising there, they just like to size up how far their competitors have gone with the latest offering.
I have heard of a Michelin Tyre Dealer in Delhi, with a UP registered OHC Vtec with piggy Back Chip dissecting Yokohoma Advan Neova AD07 Tyres in order to make the next Pilot Preceda Tyres, they are going to be called Pilot Preceda 3

On another note, all this is a common practise i have heard of Mahindra checking out Safari during the making of the Scoprio.

Quote:
Wasnt too interested in it, so just skipped the whole part. So who is suing who? I am confused now!
Bajaj was intially sueing TVS but on TVS getting to know that they are going to be sued they have threated Bajaj to take their suit back else TVS will sue Bajaj for sueing them, heck what the hell is going around??

Last edited by BUSA : 4th September 2007 at 14:27.
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Old 4th September 2007, 14:38   #29
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The patent is for using twin sparks on two valve engine. TVS has its done on three valves. Someone should go ahead and patent for multiple sparks for multiple valves.
Its hilarious to say the least (like a lot of patents in other areas)
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Old 4th September 2007, 19:40   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
In the context in which I said design it means something deeper, more intense. Say India 'designs' its GSLV rocket or a reprocessing plant for the nuclear fuel. These are all designs (and not inventions) which are different from the existing designs and hence are unique. So IF bajaj indeed designed a unique way to put in two plugs in a small IC engine which was never tried earlier because of problems due to the limitation of the size of the engine then that is something which is not artistic (like designing a suitcase as you said) but something more technical and hence may very well deserve a patent.

Coming back to this case, well, coming days are going to be interesting. It looks set to become a landmark case if pursued by both the parties. TVS is not gonna take it all lying down considering they got all those awards (demming award?) for their true engineering skills and corporate ethics.
The first paragraph is narrating a problem area for patent law. What can be patented? What should be protected by some other branch of law? Things are getting difficult. A design of the kind you mention is like this - X uses component A, B and C from others and o new thing of his own, D, while E and F are not exatly 'new'. He puts all together in G. If X enjoys patent rights over D and design rihts over E and trade secret over F, (perfectly possible), what is the status of G? This is your statement in simplified legalese.

I am still to read the posts below this, but already, I find that TVS has threatened a defamation suit against Bajaj. They say that the patent is invalid.

I hate to predicit certain things.
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