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Old 6th September 2007, 23:43   #31
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Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
On another note, all this is a common practise i have heard of Mahindra checking out Safari during the making of the Scoprio.
ahhh....didn't learn much did they ?
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Old 26th October 2007, 17:20   #32
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I guess the title needs to be changed now, as it is exactly opposite to the latest developement.

Source: TVS files Rs 250 cr defamation suit against Bajaj- Two-wheelers-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times
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Old 17th February 2008, 07:07   #33
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Default Update - things turn against TVS

1. The Hindu : Business : TVS restrained from making Flame bike
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Old 17th February 2008, 08:05   #34
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if you can patent buying something in a single click, why not two plugs in a cylinder?

The world seriously needs patent reform. What if karl benz had patented 3 & 4 wheeled automobiles ?
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Old 17th February 2008, 08:13   #35
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So- Bajaj was right afterall!
Quote:
Bajaj Pulsar patent valid for 20 years
Balance of convenience favours BAL
The verdict-
Quote:
CHENNAI: The Madras High Court on Saturday restrained TVS Motor Company from manufacturing and selling 125cc Flame motorcycles by using the technology/invention described in the patent granted to Bajaj Auto Limited.
The case filed by TVS against Bajaj auto has been dismissed bu the court-
Quote:
The Judge dismissed the application filed by TVS Motor Company seeking an order restraining the respondent from interfering with the manufacture and marketing of the applicant’s products using IC engine with three valves and two spark plugs.
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Old 17th February 2008, 10:46   #36
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I hate Bajaj. Mainly because I hate that Rahul Bajaj . He's the one who made sure that you can't import the big bikes earlier then later he made sure that you cant import anything under 800 cc. He's got a big hand in all these stupid rules.

Last edited by straight6 : 17th February 2008 at 10:47.
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Old 17th February 2008, 11:34   #37
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He's the one who made sure that you can't import the big bikes earlier then later he made sure that you cant import anything under 800 cc. He's got a big hand in all these stupid rules.
Any details on this? Can you elaborate / back up that statement?
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Old 17th February 2008, 14:18   #38
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Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post
Any details on this? Can you elaborate / back up that statement?
My uncle is the chief road test editor of a magazine here. I get to know about a lot of things. He's also had a big hand in the Yamaha's being launched here. That's all I can tell you.
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Old 17th February 2008, 14:52   #39
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I think that what bajaj is trying to say is that the digital twin spark ignition controlled through CDI unit is patented not the twin spark plugs twin spark technology was invented way decades before but they were not controlled digitally in small engines below 250cc .

its like same as the honda vtech technology invented by honda thats why only honda can use v tech engines in cars .

its just mine thinking for bajaj
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Old 17th February 2008, 20:01   #40
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am sure that this will go to the supreme court. we have some very pre-historic patent laws in our country. patent laws are very complex and take huge amounts of information and knowledge base to get right. in india we are still in the pre-independance era when it comes to technology laws.

i feel sorry for tvs. the flame is a 3-valve 2 spark engine and different from the 2-valve of bajaj. but guess bajaj knows the the indian patent laws better than tvs. how can you patent a 2 spark plug design? if this holds water then one can patent a twin cylinder design too. and car manufacturers can patent the 4 valve engine too, a 4 cylinder engine too. its painfully clear that our courts do not have the technical knowledge to judge a case like this. tvs is in a lot of trouble because their future depends on the flame. they desperately need a model to resurrect their flaggin sales. bajaj knows this and have purposely used the ice-age patent laws in india to their advantage.

remember, this is the company that famously once quoted "we do not need a marketing department, we need just a manufacturing department". they made crores of profit by taking maximum advantage in those days by selling out dated and obsolete products during the "control raj". and now they are pretending to be 'snow-white'. hah! they do not deserve all the praise they receive today. public memory is short sadly.

tvs was a pioneer who really brought about better products. the tvs moped delivered power and performance and killed the luna that was a really crap vehicle. the ax100 showed us all what motorcycles ought to be and sounded the death knell of the yezdi and rajdoot. the samurai brought cheaper and no problem commuting to the masses. the victor brought the 4 stroke technology with some looks too. the fiero started the actual war in the 150cc performance class. now they have brought something revolutionary with the flame but bajaj have thrown a spanner on the works.

mind you bajaj has done a lot for the indian market in recent years. but they are like the japs. take an innovative and pathbreaking launch by a rival country/manufacturer, develop it and offer a better version at a lesser price to the market and kill the source of the innovation/idea.
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Old 17th February 2008, 21:40   #41
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i feel sorry for the tvs guys for all the efforts they have put in and the money spend on all these developments,anyways hope we see the bike in some new avatars.
ram
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Old 17th February 2008, 23:04   #42
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I'm don't want to say it, but, it's just a rant, this one.
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am sure that this will go to the supreme court. we have some very pre-historic patent laws in our country. patent laws are very complex and take huge amounts of information and knowledge base to get right. in india we are still in the pre-independance era when it comes to technology laws.
Patent are more complex than that, the court doesn't make them, it upholds them.
A person/company can get a patent to anything he has done first, before any other. even the wheel could have been patented as long as one can expain what it thing does and how exactly it does it.
Eg) botton's on the car's door were a merc patent. after the patent period i.e.
15 years or so it can be used freely, otherwise one's gotta pay royalty and use if the patent holder agrees to let one use it.
The B2 bomber aircraft has tons of patents on it, some are very crazy, so much that they sound stupid.
Contrary to what you think, the laws are not prehistoric here.
If TVS wins the case, bajaj is into deep trouble.
Quote:
i feel sorry for tvs. the flame is a 3-valve 2 spark engine and different from the 2-valve of bajaj. but guess bajaj knows the the indian patent laws better than tvs. how can you patent a 2 spark plug design?
Lets us know what the patent is exactly first.

Quote:
during the "control raj". and now they are pretending to be 'snow-white'. tvs was a pioneer who really brought about better products.
the samurai brought cheaper and no problem commuting to the masses.
Every manufacturer did that during the sudershan period from the amby's to the padmini's. Even had a government hand in that, in curbing production to half the capacity and creating a black market.
Even if they did any good in the past still doesn't qualify them to copy technology and use it.

Quote:
the samurai brought cheaper and no problem commuting to the masses. the victor brought the 4 stroke technology with some looks too. the fiero started the actual war in the 150cc performance class. now they have brought something revolutionary with the flame but bajaj have thrown a spanner on the works.
So what?
That, what ur referring to there is the end of the sudershan peroid.
Every manufacturer did that, kawasaki-bajaj, yamaha-rajdooth, IND-Suzuki, Tvs-Suzuki, DCM-Daewoo....that was the start of globalisation when a foreign company needed a local partner.....
Quote:
take an innovative and path breaking launch by a rival country/manufacturer, develop it and offer a better version at a lesser price to the market and kill the source of the innovation/idea.
That, My friend, is the way any firm anywhere deals with competition to survive. Even the flame is the result of competition, if not they would have still been selling victors!

Last edited by gendarmee : 17th February 2008 at 23:10. Reason: correcting typo
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Old 18th February 2008, 07:55   #43
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Patent are more complex than that, the court doesn't make them, it upholds them.
A person/company can get a patent to anything he has done first, before any other. even the wheel could have been patented as long as one can expain what it thing does and how exactly it does it.
And patents are subject to nullification by the courts. Even when you get a patent, if the court finds that it should not have been granted, the court will strike it down. This has a flip side - seen now - anybody with a good patent lawyer can obtain a bogus, non-inventive patent (like the Amazon double click patent, which is now nullified, AFAIK) and then indulge in anti-competitive practises. Companies like Microsoft are now doing this in the software world; and worst part of the tactics is that Microsoft is not even divulging what patents they are claiming.

Quote:
Eg) botton's on the car's door were a merc patent. after the patent period i.e. 15 years or so it can be used freely, otherwise one's gotta pay royalty and use if the patent holder agrees to let one use it.
The time is 20 years now. And given that double sparks technology is already patented, what is so innovative about using that on < 250 CC engines? And what is the sanctity of this 250CC? (I have no clue how/why this 250 CC threshold exists). Miniaturisation is not patentable, it is just design innovation, and design innovation is protected by a different law. Somebody else can easily arrive at a different method of such miniaturisation.

Quote:
If TVS wins the case, bajaj is into deep trouble.
In what way? The costs our courts award are peanuts!!! And there is no penalty for false allegations. Bajaj can easily establish a hegemony on the whole market by the time the court case is over. And remember that unlike the US, where "Long drawn patent litigation" means a case which reaches its end in 3 years, a "quickly decided" litigaion in India takes mere 3 decades.
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Old 18th February 2008, 10:19   #44
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Originally Posted by straight6 View Post
I hate Bajaj. Mainly because I hate that Rahul Bajaj . He's the one who made sure that you can't import the big bikes earlier then later he made sure that you cant import anything under 800 cc. He's got a big hand in all these stupid rules.
I hate TVS. and HH.

If Bajaj did not launch the Pulsar and Discover, we would still have CD Dawn+++s and Super Duper Splendors selling for 45k and 60k respectively.

Take the XCD for an example. It has more features than TVS's and HH's 150cc bikes and is still priced on par with their 125 ccs (if not below)

Bajaj started:

Alloy wheels for the masses.
Disc brakes for the masses.
Self start, LED tail lamps, digital speedos for the masses.
What about the spring in spring technology that it offers in the ultra-cheap platina?

All other bike manufacturers in India are playing catchup.

Last edited by Proxima : 18th February 2008 at 10:20.
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Old 18th February 2008, 11:40   #45
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Maybe RE should patent the use of twin spark plugs and lean burn technology (separately and together) in engines above 350cc... Lol

Tata should patent the use of twin cylinder petrol & diesel engines in passenger cars - well atleast in the indian context...hehehe

They should also patent the use of rear mounted engines in passenger vehicles - again in the Indian context; but that is if Bajaj hasn't already gone and applied for a patent for it lol


TVS should take this as a challenge and nullify that patent or better still come out with something new.

Anyways it'll be good for us customers!
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