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Old 24th October 2007, 16:43   #16
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@Kuttapan: Yes I agree to what you say, I was only saying that this practice is not practiced only by BAL.

@et: When I pay for a vehicle I expect it to be trouble free irrespective of the fat that faulty parts will be replaced FOC.

- The chetak & other scooters were essentially Vespa engines & not something which BAL designed
- The classics always had some or the other issues the most commonly known one is clutch wear.

Yes Recalls are global phenomenon but that does not happen with every new release globally which is the case with BAL.

All said & done BAL products are highly VFM & thats why they sell.

Just for the info I have owned a P180 DTSI V1 & a ZMA & currently riding a classic P150.
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Old 24th October 2007, 17:44   #17
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@et: When I pay for a vehicle I expect it to be trouble free irrespective of the fat that faulty parts will be replaced FOC.
Techno my point is that taking things like noisy center stand and probability of a faulty component in electric starter and saying Bajaj bikes have shoddy quality and that they are unreliable is taking things too far.
The fact that they have acknowledged that and are working on the same calls for some sorta commitment unlike HH which did nothing about the cam tensioner issue and on top of that charged ridiculous sums of money when one goes to get it changed.
In anycase the recall is not for a serious issue that impacts the rideability or safety of the bike.

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- The chetak & other scooters were essentially Vespa engines & not something which BAL designed
They were built by Bajaj and we are talking reliability and quality here.

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Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Yes Recalls are global phenomenon but that does not happen with every new release globally which is the case with BAL.
What about a company which keeps mum even if they have issue in their porduct vis a vis another who acknowledges it and gets it rectified.

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All said & done BAL products are highly VFM & thats why they sell.
Kinetic bikes were even higher value for money, I wonder why didnt they sell. The RTR is a better VFM than Pulsar still not able to dent its sales.... Its not just VFM, keeping a brand alive in market and being numero uno takes a lot more than just VFM. Though I would agree from the early Pulsar days the quality has gone down a little but then same is the case with every product in the market.
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Old 24th October 2007, 19:11   #18
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@extreme_torque - I don't know where you got the idea that bajaj bikes do not have engine trouble. Kawasaki 4s crank is a case in point, Rajiv bajaj himself has said that the earlier pulsars were a load of ****(not exact words).

Gearbox is a critical part and the achilles heel of Pulsar.
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Old 24th October 2007, 19:30   #19
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Techno my point is that taking things like noisy center stand and probability of a faulty component in electric starter and saying Bajaj bikes have shoddy quality and that they are unreliable is taking things too far.

Its been 6 years(since 2002) that BAL is making brand new vehicles but we still have new release issues

The fact that they have acknowledged that and are working on the same calls for some sorta commitment unlike HH which did nothing about the cam tensioner issue and on top of that charged ridiculous sums of money when one goes to get it changed.

All that HH has is one cam issue which fortunately I never faced in 14k run of my ZMA, the list of problems is quite long for BAL bikes

In anycase the recall is not for a serious issue that impacts the rideability or safety of the bike.

Serious or not the very existence of a problem is not expected

They were built by Bajaj and we are talking reliability and quality here.

Built to Spec not designed by them

What about a company which keeps mum even if they have issue in their porduct vis a vis another who acknowledges it and gets it rectified.

BAL has not issued any accpetance publicly of the faults in their bikes Even HH does replacement FOC in warranty

Kinetic bikes were even higher value for money, I wonder why didnt they sell.

Kinteic has other issues who will trust a company whose products do not stay in market for over a year or two

The RTR is a better VFM than Pulsar still not able to dent its sales....

I didnt knew if producing power equal to a 180cc in a 160cc is called VFM

Its not just VFM, keeping a brand alive in market and being numero uno takes a lot more than just VFM. Though I would agree from the early Pulsar days the quality has gone down a little but then same is the case with every product in the market.
Yes what makes BAL going is the year old trust of cheaper spares & easy availability of service centers & the Hamara Bajaj belief.

Trust me I am not against BAL its just that after what they have done to the current biking scene I have higher expectations from them thats all
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Old 24th October 2007, 19:43   #20
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BAL doesn't have faulty electric components for self-start on the XCD only. Even the Pulsars have and still face that problem.

First the P200, now this one...

P.S. Techno, yes...the only reason why BAL does well is due to cheap spares, even though other bikes require lesser maintainence...Funny isin't it?

Last edited by turbo_v12 : 24th October 2007 at 19:45.
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Old 24th October 2007, 20:09   #21
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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
While I admit that Bajaj has come a long way, they still have a lot of ground to cover.
Agreed. Bajaj has a long way to go! (I being a Pulsar owner, do know of its negatives)

But please sir, can you just remind us what other options do we have?

HH is still playing the 100cc game. They do it best, and they are happy with that. All hopes in the above egment was when the Apache was launched, but my friends' bikes degraded so fast, left the idea.

Then there is the ZMA! Which is better than the pulsar for sure! (Except for the poor mileage). And just when everything seemed right, HH gave it yucky stickerwork and yellow dials!

Now, sir, please suggest a 150cc+ bike?
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But in case of HH, the models(CD100, SS, Deluxe, Joy, Dawn etc) are pretty much the same bike. And models have longevity and they last. Parts are not an issue.
Wouldn't you make a huge row if Maruti goes on selling 800 in different names and different sticker work?

Whats the difference here?
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Yamaha is a master, I agree but they sell same engine in different bodywork/name. And you have to admit, the products are much much better than Bajaj quality wise.
Yes. Their bikes are excellent, no argument. However, the dont sell! And dealer doesnt want to sell, and provide service. Thats my experience.

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Old 24th October 2007, 21:31   #22
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Indians are new to recalls. Recalls are a global phonomenon. Even honda does recalls. Dell did a huge massive recall last year for their laptop battteries (made by Sony). So, we see all the reputed manufacturers are involved in recalls. The point is, the manufacturer is willing to acknowledge the problem and correct it.

it is a totally different point that their vehicles are changing very fast and hence leaves the early birds with less spares. I would rather have a technologically superior bike being launched rather than think about the resale value of my current bike.

Also how may of us have actually been involved in a recall? I have been, in the case of my 8 year old Ford Taurus in US. Trust me, i never knew there was a problem! Here too, without knowing the exact magnitude of the problem, i am inclined to think Bajaj is setting a good trend.

Off topic: Even microsoft does it - in the form of service packs .
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Old 25th October 2007, 10:13   #23
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Hey...Even Nokia did it...he he!
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Old 25th October 2007, 10:59   #24
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I accept that recalls happen all the time, but with the kind of response they had because of the nokia battery problem, I am sure in future they wouldn't wanna recall anything. But, how many times do the recalls happen and with how many models? With Bajaj, it was with Pulsar 200, krystal and now XCD. Let me bring to everyone's notice that all these models were released in 2007 and within a span of 10 months across 3 products, recalling seriously impacts any buyer's decision. I own a P180 UG3 and looking at the quality, I wouldnt wanna own a Bajaj again. And this is a personal choice, it could differ from individual to individual.

Crazy Driver,
How about Unicorn, that is a 150CC bike? I think thats a great bike, atleast the experience has been great for all my friends who own one.
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Old 25th October 2007, 12:04   #25
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on thing that bajaj lacks is the quality control i think we all agree on this.
second they do not have a trained fleet of mechanics for all the new models they release.
they give too much of lenience to the bajaj dealers and there are like 10-12 bajaj dealer names here in Hyderabad itself so i wonder howmany dealers are present all over Andhra or India? na bajaj cannot keep a watch over all these dealer's practices!

i am stressing the leniency given to these dealers because they have created 5-6 upgrades of the pulsar 150 and the 180 alike by mix matching the spares made for the ug 1,2and 3! the other day i saw a pulsar 150 being sold with the Goldcrust rear tyre that comes with a discover 135 and not p150 so the same way a pulsar 200 handle was forced on to a p-180, if these visible parts are being changed as per the dealers choice what about the major engine components? also to sell xcd faster the bikes body parts are shipped in uncolored condition to this particular siddivinayaka dealer in kachiguda in hyderabad and according to the bookings made they have done the coloring and have put it in a glass room visible for the visitors to see, beside the spares department this is the reason why the bajaj has started s@#$%&g!


all this is unacceptable from the BAL and they s@#k for this reason boy oh boy is bajaj sleeping realbad?
also their attitiude is to sell all their new bikes as fast as they can and make money.

its just that the equation goes something like this

a person buying CT100 for say 30000+rupees with a mileage of mininum 70kmpl will be used and abused for two years or till the bike is 40-50k kms old and sells it off for 8k -10k bucks and buys the new model bike avaliable at that time.

a person buying a CD100 form hh will buy it 38000+ bucks with a mileage of minimum 70kmpl keeps the bike for life time l.e 4-5 years or 80000kms and then sells it to get back not more than 10-15k bucks and then looks for a upgrade or the same grade bike at that time!

well the guy who uses a bajaj will save 8k bucks and use it for almost a year and a quarter's FUEL charges! but the will need to live with a bike that is not very reliable!

and the hh guy will use the bike for DOUBLE the life time of the CT100 bike and is more VALUE for money in the long run! Even if he has ended up paying 8k bucks more!

thats the thing thats selling bajaj people with less money for the initial costs often end up with a bajaj!

also i would strongly recommend people to import a bike from abroad than paying a lac for the p220 of 3/4 th lac for the p200! one can import the Honda twister 250 also known as the CBF-250 from singapore or other near by countries!

Last edited by rider60 : 25th October 2007 at 12:19.
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Old 25th October 2007, 15:00   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Wouldn't you make a huge row if Maruti goes on selling 800 in different names and different sticker work?

Wel MUL did provide same engine in Zen, M1000 & Gypsy. Also Same engine in Alto VX & Wagon R
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Originally Posted by deep_bang View Post
Indians are new to recalls. Recalls are a global phonomenon. Even honda does recalls. Dell did a huge massive recall last year for their laptop battteries (made by Sony). So, we see all the reputed manufacturers are involved in recalls. The point is, the manufacturer is willing to acknowledge the problem and correct it.

How Frequent are the Recalls by these manufacturers ?

it is a totally different point that their vehicles are changing very fast and hence leaves the early birds with less spares. I would rather have a technologically superior bike being launched rather than think about the resale value of my current bike.

You will when your technically superior bike today will be outdated tomorrow in next few months

Also how may of us have actually been involved in a recall? I have been, in the case of my 8 year old Ford Taurus in US. Trust me, i never knew there was a problem! Here too, without knowing the exact magnitude of the problem, i am inclined to think Bajaj is setting a good trend.

Trust me in BALs case most of the users are aware of the problems.

Off topic: Even microsoft does it - in the form of service packs .

Yes but then it doesnt have much competition in the GUI OS market

The point is their recalss have been too frequent & of componanats which are expected to be trouble free, things like forks, starter, Poor Tank cap, Clutch plates arent expected to go that way they do also some of these problems havent been taken care of completly till date.
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Old 25th October 2007, 15:35   #27
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@Crazy Driver - I am sure you know, the CBZ was an excellent product from HH, until Bajaj came and killed it with their pricing. Low mileage didn't help it either, and HH lost the plot when they release the CBZ* and later the Achiever.

But the CBZ extreme and Karizma are excellent bikes, from the reliability standpoint(let's not discuss looks , mileage etc here).

Honda Unicorn is a sweet bike, only it does not have the Ooomph of it's competitors.

My choice of course, would be the Apache RTR. Fiero had a very reliable and silky smooth engine, which is the base for RTR. In general TVS makes good quality stuff, maybe your friend got a rare lemon from TVS.
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Old 25th October 2007, 17:20   #28
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The point is their recalss have been too frequent & of componanats which are expected to be trouble free, things like forks, starter, Poor Tank cap, Clutch plates arent expected to go that way they do also some of these problems havent been taken care of completly till date.
Apart from the fork issue all the others very minor things and I am yet to come accross an India two wheeler company who offers a recall for a noisy stand. To me its commitment to keep the customer happy, even if the problem is minor and often overlooked by all and sundry.
Also, the recall is for a 'probable' faulty electric component in the starter, not the strarter itself.
Clutch plates... what about them? Sure they dont last as long as Karizma, but heck I can change them anytime for a mere 300-400 bucks aganist 1800+ for ZMA. In anycase the clutch easily lasts for 20-25 k's kms in my and scores of my friends who ride a pulsar under not so ideal conditions.
By the way my friend tried a burnout on his 13k's old ZMA and the clutch gave away.
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Old 25th October 2007, 17:28   #29
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a person buying CT100 for say 30000+rupees with a mileage of mininum 70kmpl will be used and abused for two years or till the bike is 40-50k kms old and sells it off for 8k -10k bucks and buys the new model bike avaliable at that time.

a person buying a CD100 form hh will buy it 38000+ bucks with a mileage of minimum 70kmpl keeps the bike for life time l.e 4-5 years or 80000kms and then sells it to get back not more than 10-15k bucks and then looks for a upgrade or the same grade bike at that time!
Its truely amazing the way you never let an idea interrupt the flow of your typing, though making sense wouldn't have hurt. Ever wondered why all delivery bikes are Bajaj's CT100. They are abused more, than you can think off.
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also i would strongly recommend people to import a bike from abroad than paying a lac for the p220 of 3/4 th lac for the p200! one can import the Honda twister 250 also known as the CBF-250 from singapore or other near by countries!
Dude that 250cc twister would be more than 2.5 lakh rupees. FYI P220 is 85 k + and 70 k+.
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Old 25th October 2007, 18:29   #30
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Apart from the fork issue all the others very minor things and I am yet to come accross an India two wheeler company who offers a recall for a noisy stand. To me its commitment to keep the customer happy, even if the problem is minor and often overlooked by all and sundry.
Also, the recall is for a 'probable' faulty electric component in the starter, not the strarter itself.
Clutch plates... what about them? Sure they dont last as long as Karizma, but heck I can change them anytime for a mere 300-400 bucks aganist 1800+ for ZMA. In anycase the clutch easily lasts for 20-25 k's kms in my and scores of my friends who ride a pulsar under not so ideal conditions.
By the way my friend tried a burnout on his 13k's old ZMA and the clutch gave away.
@ET : Minor or major going back to service station for things apart than regular service is annoying.. I will just list a few probelms that I am aware first hand

- The digi speedos still face problems many dont even bother to complain as its fine once you switch off & then on.

- The center stand on initial lots hits road on leaning dont tell me you are not supposed to lean on a performance bike.

- The mirrors on P220 are a joke you cant see anything behind

- All the pulsars' RVM vibrate som much that you hardly make out whats behind you above 80 kph

The list is long... I am not saying HH is better but take all other manufactures new launches they dont have these many faults tell what problems did Xtreme faced or the RTR or the CBZ(old), Apache, Heck even LML had defect free bikes like freedom.
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