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Old 31st December 2007, 08:55   #1
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Hi there!

I have a kinetic Blaze which has done 3000Kms. Now I have a few questions

1. Is it true that electric start consumes more fuel than the kick start?
2. Unfortunately, the side body pannel got scratched when i inadvertantly brushed against a road divider..is there any way to fix it?
3. The default head lamps are dual 35W bulbs. What is the best bulb that i can fit for the greatest light without modifying the electricals?

Thanks in advance for the help guys!
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Old 31st December 2007, 18:17   #2
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Is it true that electric start consumes more fuel than the kick start?
I dont think that is true at all, starter will work on battery not on fuel.

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The default head lamps are dual 35W bulbs. What is the best bulb that i can fit for the greatest light without modifying the electricals?
You can go for HID if you dont want to mess with the wiring, else if you are willing to install a relay, higher powered lamps can be put.

Quote:
the side body pannel got scratched when i inadvertantly brushed against a road divider..is there any way to fix it?
You can get it touched up, otherwise you need to get it painted, if it is not that bad, then polishing can remove it.
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Old 31st December 2007, 19:21   #3
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I dont think that is true at all, starter will work on battery not on fuel.
and battery gets charged by the running engine which takes fuel. theoreticaly, it will take more fuel. but you may not really notice the difference. small price to pay for the comfort.
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Old 31st December 2007, 19:46   #4
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
and battery gets charged by the running engine which takes fuel. theoreticaly, it will take more fuel. but you may not really notice the difference. small price to pay for the comfort.
Could you please explain?

Are you saying engine will run more to charge the battery?
Or that engine will consume more fuel to charge the battery?

AFAIK, the battery is being charged whenever the engine is run. So, it shouldnt affect!

If so, a car with a BIG ICE set-up should give very less mileage compared to a car with no ICE!

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 31st December 2007 at 19:48.
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Old 31st December 2007, 21:11   #5
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and battery gets charged by the running engine which takes fuel. theoreticaly, it will take more fuel. but you may not really notice the difference. small price to pay for the comfort.
I back this opinion. It will take more fuel but you may not really notice it. When power is being used it puts a bit more strain on the motor.

Notice that in most two wheelers and old carb cars when you switch on the headlight there is a change in the idle rpm. The engine slows down a bit when you switch on the headlamps.

Higher output alternators sap more power from the engine. True for both cars and bikes but more noticeable in our bikes.

Last edited by Sankar : 31st December 2007 at 21:14.
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Old 31st December 2007, 22:25   #6
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Could you please explain?

Are you saying engine will run more to charge the battery?
Or that engine will consume more fuel to charge the battery?

AFAIK, the battery is being charged whenever the engine is run. So, it shouldnt affect!

If so, a car with a BIG ICE set-up should give very less mileage compared to a car with no ICE!
yes, your last statement is also correct (except for the 'very less' part). from the basics of physics, energy can only be converted from one form (or mass) to another. in this case, the energy from fuel.

read it as 'more load' on the engine, hence more fuel burnt.

Last edited by vivekiny2k : 31st December 2007 at 22:27.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 12:49   #7
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[quote=chvvkumar;672134]Hi there!

I have a kinetic Blaze which has done 3000Kms. Now I have a few questions

1. Is it true that electric start consumes more fuel than the kick start?
QUOTE]

Nope not true. To start with an electric start u need battery power which comes through a rectifier, which in turn goes to the CDI and provides the signal for the spark to ignite and start engine. This mehcanism is electrical. For a kick start the mechanism is mechanical. How does it effect the fuel consumption in anyway?

Quote:
2. Unfortunately, the side body pannel got scratched when i inadvertantly brushed against a road divider..is there any way to fix it?
How big is the scratch, try washing and then polishing if it does not help and get it re-touched with some paint.

Quote:
3. The default head lamps are dual 35W bulbs. What is the best bulb that i can fit for the greatest light without modifying the electricals?
Not sure about the dynamo output of the blaze is it restricted to 35w? In that case alteration is required. To test it get 1 60/55w bulb and check.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 17:32   #8
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
and battery gets charged by the running engine which takes fuel. theoreticaly, it will take more fuel. but you may not really notice the difference. small price to pay for the comfort.

The battery is charged by an alternator driven by the engine. It has negligible effect on the observed FE.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 19:56   #9
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In theory yes, but in practice negligible. yes if the battery is weak and you crank more to start you waste petrol

If this was told to you coz u have a self start issue or low mileage problem, go kick the mechs butt!!
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Old 2nd January 2008, 21:08   #10
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Originally Posted by chvvkumar View Post
Hi there!

I have a kinetic Blaze which has done 3000Kms. Now I have a few questions

1. Is it true that electric start consumes more fuel than the kick start?
2. Unfortunately, the side body pannel got scratched when i inadvertantly brushed against a road divider..is there any way to fix it?
3. The default head lamps are dual 35W bulbs. What is the best bulb that i can fit for the greatest light without modifying the electricals?

Thanks in advance for the help guys!
Happy to see that lot of applied physics running in our forum . No coming to your point , Yes electric start will consume more than kick start. Why? The answer is simple. When you do electric start there is a solinoid which automtically engage the choke in your carb. This arrangement makes sure that the engine get a rich mixture of petrol and air for starting at below optimum temperature. But there is no mechanism to detect the current temperature of engine and avoid the usage of choke when not required. Wherein for kick start we hardly use choke. Hope its clear
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Old 2nd January 2008, 23:05   #11
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Originally Posted by HotChillyPepper View Post
Happy to see that lot of applied physics running in our forum . No coming to your point , Yes electric start will consume more than kick start. Why? The answer is simple. When you do electric start there is a solinoid which automtically engage the choke in your carb. This arrangement makes sure that the engine get a rich mixture of petrol and air for starting at below optimum temperature. But there is no mechanism to detect the current temperature of engine and avoid the usage of choke when not required. Wherein for kick start we hardly use choke. Hope its clear
in most auto-choke scooters the automatic choke solenoid is activated by the battery when the ignition is turned on and not by the starter button. so its unlikely to have any effect on fuel consumption. the blaze does not have this system, its got a manual choke.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 23:23   #12
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Sorry for not replying earlier! (I was out of town...in a villege without internet)

A big Thanks to all of you! Really good and informative discussion going on here. Keep it up!

I learned fom this thread that the choke is automatically engaged when ES is used. Didn't know that before

Also, isn't it that the Solenoid/Dynamo/etc. in the engine produces whatever power that the engine rotation produces? It can not make the engine run faster for more power right? So, even if the ES drains the battery, it all comes from the allready existing reserve stored in the battery and there is no special extra charging to the battery as the Es drains it more than the Kick.

The vehivle designer must employ a (battery capacity+charging power) combination such that the battery has a power > [Normal Power to the electricals in a vehicle]+[power used by ES]+[Some extra capacity] allways so that it won't get drained by some extra night time riding. Isn't it?
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Old 3rd January 2008, 02:17   #13
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Originally Posted by chvvkumar View Post
Also, isn't it that the Solenoid/Dynamo/etc. in the engine produces whatever power that the engine rotation produces? It can not make the engine run faster for more power right? So, even if the ES drains the battery, it all comes from the allready existing reserve stored in the battery and there is no special extra charging to the battery as the Es drains it more than the Kick.
not sure if I understood correctly, but let me explain, when your battery is drained from starting (let's assume after multiple cranks), the dynamo/alternator/charger will load the engine more because it is diverting more electricity for charging the battery.

In electrical engg: If you are rotating a generator by hand, and the output socket is open, you will be able to rotate it freely. but if somebody attaches a bulb at it's ends, it will start drawing power. the resulting current will create a magnetic field inside the generator which will oppose rotor (and your hands) movement and it will be much difficult to rotate the generator.

In basic physics, all it means is since you are drawing power at one end, you HAVE to give out energy at your end.

In your carburetted engine, this load will slow down the engine, hence you will end up releasing the throttle to give more fuel to get back at regular speed, hence more fuel consumption. again, remember, like everybody else pointed it out, it will be negligible. but at least I explained the theory to you.


Quote:
The vehivle designer must employ a (battery capacity+charging power) combination such that the battery has a power > [Normal Power to the electricals in a vehicle]+[power used by ES]+[Some extra capacity] allways so that it won't get drained by some extra night time riding. Isn't it?
well again my own example. I used to drive my bike at low RPMs, even at speed of 20 km/h i stayed at 5th gear. this kept my mileage at 70 kmpl, but my battery used to be at all time low all the time. manufacturer can give you a good capacity, but the charging totally depends upon the bike's condition and style of driving. thankfully I didn't have an ES and never felt the need for the battery power otherwise.

@Crazydriver, remember 1 HP=746 watts. if you add electrical losses, power factor etc, a 500 watt music system blaring at full power can reduce your car's power by 1 HP.
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Old 3rd January 2008, 10:53   #14
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So, you are talking about the reverse EMF creating a self induction right?

Also, here are some pics of the damage to the bodywork.

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Old 3rd January 2008, 16:00   #15
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Lightbulb here it is

for god sake. Dont mix self induction(static) and reverse emf(dynamic). i think u got confused much with the terms. u have the solution now.

normally when you do the electric start the battery will lose some of its charge, when the engine is running all the components including the alternator(power generator) will be running continuosly. there is a device called alternator relay switch connected between batterry and alternator, whenever the battery is in need of power this relay switch engages automatically and closes the entire circuit making the alternator in operation to produce power for the battery to fill in,

in the case of starting the engine, the relay closes the circuit after the engine is started. so the alternator runs upto the point to charge the battery.
it means

(fuel consumed by the engine) - (power consumed by the alternator to charge the battery)

= power available at the wheels

in this case the acceleration will get reduced for the same amount of fuel with full battery and battery after starting the engine.

if u keenly observe you can the feel the pick up loss.
it is a negligible power loss for a life of battery, but it is remarkable for that instance since the starter motor consumes higher current within the instance, the starter motor drains 4% of the battery power for every start.

this is my experience and profession but still correct me if im wrong
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