Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Motorbikes


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th January 2008, 01:34   #31
BHPian
 
Proxima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chennai
Posts: 801
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

I own a Victor which gave me engine problems within the first 5k kms. Changed everything under warranty but after the warranty, the same engine noise repeats itself.

The only thing good in the Victor is the rear suspension. (not the front, that conked off as well, was replaced)

IMO, the lifetime of TVS products in general is low as compared to say a HH.

A TVS always is valued much less in the 2nd hand market that its competitors. Atleast this is true in Chennai.

The tyres that the Victor came with (TVS tyres) was absolute crap as well. Changed at 15k kms.

I should have bought a Passion in hindsight.

My Advice: stay away from TVS. Bajaj, HH and Honda seem ok to me.

This is just my opinion, I dont intend to fight with anyone here!!!
Proxima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 01:36   #32
BHPian
 
Proxima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chennai
Posts: 801
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
btw, hero honda might argue contrary to your comment that their flagship model is the hunk
By your own theory, should it not be the ZMA?
Proxima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 03:02   #33
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Mpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 10,432
Thanked: 1,682 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post

Agree completely to the first part. As for the second, its completely incorrect. There are enough ignoramuses on all kinds of wheels

think your average call center indica broken down by the road
I know its a controversial statement and that why I emphasized on generally. Yes cab drivers aren't well educated either hopefully cab owners are.

Another rule of thumb is to be cautious of anything new in its first year of production. Especially from companies with not a lot of experience like Tata, Mahindra, TVS and Bajaj.

Last edited by Mpower : 30th January 2008 at 03:03.
Mpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 10:24   #34
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: bangalore
Posts: 423
Thanked: 13 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxima View Post
By your own theory, should it not be the ZMA?
correction noted, error regretted.
hollywoodhogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 11:07   #35
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
regular maintenance is not really as ambiguous like you describe it. the fact that the vehicle is checked for any requirement of change of parts/oil is regular maintenence in itself and not necessarily the actual changing.

btw, hero honda might argue contrary to your comment that their flagship model is the hunk and not the cd100 or its engine. flagship does not have to mean the largest selling. like the bmw flagship is the 7 series, the ferrari flagship is perhaps the enzo, the maruti flagship is the grand vitara and not the 800 or alto.
Oh ! ok , confusion noted ..hehe . bread and butter model ?
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 11:21   #36
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Why i am strongly vocal with regard to TVS is because

1. they give you tvs tyres standard on any tvs vehicle you buy . Atleast with anyother bike you get an option of a different tyre . TVS tyres are really bad and a small drizzle makes the bikes to do a complete turn under normal braking . (i do understand that tyres can be changed ,but hmmm, the cost of replacing 2 tyres comes up to 1,500 and the old tyres can be sold for only 100 rs . this is in chennai though )

2. The kind of front disk brakes they give is really shoddy . especially the master cylinder kit . I have got it jammed umpteen no of times and I got the master cylinder replaced with a kbx kit . the brake kit is manufactured by tvs again .

Now coming down to the main part ,the engine . Tvs were traditionally a 2 stroke engine manufacturer and even their 2 stroke designs suck as a matter of fact . eg-xl ,champ .

coming to designing of 4 strokes needs a lot of good design input , proper testing facilities etc ,which i suspect is the real problem .

cam shaft bearing failure , primarily is due to less oil being delivered by the oil pump for the bearings . ( this is my reasoning )

Not only tvs ,but bajaj as well have not been able to develop a proper 4 stroke engine which lasts as good as a 2 stroke engine . (reason for this blanket statement - Bajaj 2 stroke auto sells much better because 4 stroke auto are prone to break down .)
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 12:07   #37
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: KL
Posts: 4,680
Thanked: 3,508 Times
Default

My replies are in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Why i am strongly vocal with regard to TVS is because

1. they give you tvs tyres standard on any tvs vehicle you buy . Atleast with anyother bike you get an option of a different tyre . TVS tyres are really bad and a small drizzle makes the bikes to do a complete turn under normal braking . (i do understand that tyres can be changed ,but hmmm, the cost of replacing 2 tyres comes up to 1,500 and the old tyres can be sold for only 100 rs . this is in chennai though )

Tyres suck. But company is doing what it's the best for them. Can't really find fault with that. Any other manufacturer would've done the same if they had a tyre manufacturing unit. The TVS tyre on the Centra is pencil thin - only marginally broader than a Hercules MTB tyre lol And the grip sucks.

2. The kind of front disk brakes they give is really shoddy . especially the master cylinder kit . I have got it jammed umpteen no of times and I got the master cylinder replaced with a kbx kit . the brake kit is manufactured by tvs again .

TVS-Girling supplies braking systems to other automobile manufacturers. OEM brake pads supplied to Maruti are TVS_girling. Apache RTR's brakes are acclaimed to be one of the best braking system on an Indian bike.

Now coming down to the main part ,the engine . Tvs were traditionally a 2 stroke engine manufacturer and even their 2 stroke designs suck as a matter of fact . eg-xl ,champ .

The two-stroke engines were based on Suzuki designs. They were proven successfully on the track.

TVS XL and Champ sells in good numbers. And they literally wiped out the competition in that segment.


coming to designing of 4 strokes needs a lot of good design input , proper testing facilities etc ,which i suspect is the real problem .

TVS started with the Suzuki engine in the Fiero. The new apache and the RTR evolved from this engine. The other engines must've been less than brilliant. I have a Centra and i'm not much impressed with it when compared to a HH.

And TVS test bed is the race track.


cam shaft bearing failure , primarily is due to less oil being delivered by the oil pump for the bearings . ( this is my reasoning )

Not only tvs ,but bajaj as well have not been able to develop a proper 4 stroke engine which lasts as good as a 2 stroke engine . (reason for this blanket statement - Bajaj 2 stroke auto sells much better because 4 stroke auto are prone to break down.)
Sankar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 21:55   #38
BHPian
 
five46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: L-O-S-T!!
Posts: 422
Thanked: 80 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post

The first line reads...
Warning:
This is a very controversial topic !!

Very similar to this thread!

Last edited by five46 : 30th January 2008 at 21:58.
five46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 22:38   #39
Distinguished - BHPian
 
phamilyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 5,601
Thanked: 3,452 Times
Default

taking this horribly OT topic to even more OT levels, the TVS Jumbo is a fantastico tyre. Some 14k down, and none the worse. Aged vastly superior to OEM Zapper - takes dirt/gravel peacefully - i offroad some 1-2km daily and it takes even a bit of sand well.

And heard from some junta that Eurogrip (Discover 135) is manufactured by a TVS concern, but badged under different name for obvious reasons. That being said, its not too bad. Let's not generalize - I can whine about zapper's ludicrous grip (at the slightest bit offroad) and love for fishtailing all day!
phamilyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2008, 22:44   #40
BHPian
 
five46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: L-O-S-T!!
Posts: 422
Thanked: 80 Times
Default

The Topic makes for an interesting read though!
Just to broaden the spectrum of my knowledge, thanks Phamilyman! cheers:
five46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2008, 01:28   #41
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
My replies are in bold.

Regarding apache rtr brakes ,i havent yet seen /driven them . bitten twice ,i do not think i would ever look at a tvs bike again . anyways ,KBX brakes have a collaboration with brembo ,and incase if you havent opened up a master cylinder ,please do take a look at the kbx . The master cylinder piston is in fibre as opposed to steel and this piston is light in weight compared to a steel rod ,so the actuation speed is definitely much faster than with a steel rod ,and I do feel the pulsars disc brake would definitely be much better than a tvs brake . girling is different from the tvs brake components manufactureed for 2 wheelers . For 2 wheelers it is manufactured by the TVS motor company and not by TVS girling .

tvs champ ,xl sold because apart from the lunas and majestics ,I do not think there was anyother serious competitior . In the good old days the ambassodor was also considered trouble free ,but can the same thing be said today .

Yes ,the blanket statement regarding tvs and bajaj still holds true . Bajaj 4 autos are a total failure -
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2008, 08:50   #42
Senior - BHPian
 
ananthkamath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 46 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
The master cylinder piston is in fibre as opposed to steel and this piston is light in weight compared to a steel rod ,so the actuation speed is definitely much faster than with a steel rod ,and I do feel the pulsars disc brake would definitely be much better than a tvs brake . girling is different from the tvs brake components manufactureed for 2 wheelers . For 2 wheelers it is manufactured by the TVS motor company and not by TVS girling .

Ok I said I am not gonna get into this. But I feel compelled to point out the following things to your kind self:


1) Master cylinder piston material in no way contributes to braking response. Why? Because it is directly connected to your foot/hand and will move in direct proportion to the speed with which you can mobilize said foot/hand. In other words, it does not matter if the piston is made of steel, lead, or kryptonite. Nor is anything gained by using carbon fiber, kevlar or a popsicle stick.

2) Why do you "feel" the pulsar's brake is better? Dude, seriously man, you must be tapped into the cosmos. Just by feel you can tell the metallurgy of the metal and the manufacturing tolerances.

3) TVS Motor doesn't make any of its brakes by itself. It sources them from Brakes India, of which TVS-Girling is a brand name. The friction lining comes from Sundaram Brake Linings in Padi. TVS also sourced this from China for a while. But now they're back to Brakes India.

4) The previous gems posted by you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Now coming down to the main part ,the engine . Tvs were traditionally a 2 stroke engine manufacturer and even their 2 stroke designs suck as a matter of fact . eg-xl ,champ .

coming to designing of 4 strokes needs a lot of good design input , proper testing facilities etc ,which i suspect is the real problem .
Let me make a blanket statement of my own. TVS's small 2-strokes are the best in the business. Case in point: The in-house developed XL super engine is smooth, torquey and powerful. It gives good mileage too. Never before in the moped industry had anyone made such an excellent moped, and never before did anyone give that combo of power, response, and fuel economy. You think it sucks? The same XL-super engine has been tuned by TVS racing to propel a moped to under 16 seconds in the quarter-mile. In case you dont know how fast that is, that is faster than a stock Apache RTR.

Another case-in-point: The Shogun. That was not a Suzuki design FYI. It was developed through TVS's racing efforts. I am not quoting what some journalist wrote in a magazine somewhere. I have personally met and spoken with some people who were responsible for the Shogun. It was developed as a "race kit" initially for the Supra. It made 18 bhp. For the street they de-tuned it so idiots didn't get thrown off. That's international standards for an 80's based design. It went like stink and walked all over the then-performance king, the RX100 (known to be the best in the business). 150 cc versions of the same basic engine make over 30 bhp in drag tune today and whoop a$$ on the strip even today.

As for 4-strokes. The Victor engine was designed and developed in-house. So was the Apache (even though its engine lineage is from the Fiero). So was the Centra. So was the star. So was the Scooty Pep and Pep+. This is, bar none, THE largest variety of engines made by a single independent manufacturer in India today. Bajaj comes close.

TVS were the first to use digital ignitions and the first to use TPS-based curves. They are among the first to develop fuel-injected motorcycles for the Indian market. They are THE first to race their 4-strokes. They have developed things like variable cam timing and lift systems and 4-valve DOHC heads, which is probably the only known application on small single-cylinder engines (I may be wrong). These are not in production yet.

Based on all of the above, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to claim that TVS doesnt have adequate R&D facilities. They do, and god help you if you still think they don't.

Sorry to hear about your poor buying experience with them. That does not mean you should come and post slander here on a public forum. IF you know your facts, post, otherwise, let others speak.

If you accuse me of being biased to them, that doesnt hold water either because I dont get paid by them anymore. On the contrary, YOU are one that's biased cause you were unlucky to get lemons and now you are on a mission of spreading slander and not getting your facts right.
ananthkamath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2008, 09:23   #43
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: KL
Posts: 4,680
Thanked: 3,508 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Regarding apache rtr brakes ,i havent yet seen /driven them . bitten twice ,i do not think i would ever look at a tvs bike again . anyways ,KBX brakes have a collaboration with brembo ,and incase if you havent opened up a master cylinder ,please do take a look at the kbx . The master cylinder piston is in fibre as opposed to steel and this piston is light in weight compared to a steel rod ,so the actuation speed is definitely much faster than with a steel rod ,and I do feel the pulsars disc brake would definitely be much better than a tvs brake . girling is different from the tvs brake components manufactureed for 2 wheelers . For 2 wheelers it is manufactured by the TVS motor company and not by TVS girling .

tvs champ ,xl sold because apart from the lunas and majestics ,I do not think there was anyother serious competitior . In the good old days the ambassodor was also considered trouble free ,but can the same thing be said today .

Yes ,the blanket statement regarding tvs and bajaj still holds true . Bajaj 4 autos are a total failure -
I know that KBX has a collaboration with brembo.

Your plastic and metal weight saving theories have you read it somewhere or are you just assuming the benefits? If it is of plastic i can see only one reason why they used plastic there that is to eliminate the chances of corrosion on the piston.

And Brakes India is TVS-Girling they supply for their two wheeler division.

January edition BIKE says that in thier long term Pulsar 220 they have an issue with the rear brake. And the same has been noticed in many other Pulsar 220s.

I have ridden an RTR and the brakes were good.

I don't know what you think but the fact is they did have many other competitors from Escorts and Kinetic in the moped market.
Sankar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2008, 11:10   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
Ajaybiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,354
Thanked: 140 Times
Default

Till date had only 2 TVS product and feels they were better when they are with Suzuki as still other TVS 2 stroke cant match the quality of the first Ind-Suzuki AX100R, Shogun was good for beating RX but engine life sucks a lot hardly 20K kms before every rebuilt.They are doing well in tracks but they have to come out from Fiero engine which they are still using in RTR and may be in upcoming higher capacity.
Breaks still my CBZ rocks(paid more then 4 k when replaced just disc for the first time after accident and still pads are costing around 750 bucks for original nissin) and 2nd place sure for RXZ disc breaks then rest KBX n all may count.
No personal offence but its going to take some time to match the quality of HH and Honda products.Still having CD100 which has more then 3.75L km on odo after 3 rebores and total 6 or 7 engine overhauls.
Ajaybiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2008, 15:46   #45
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I know that KBX has a collaboration with brembo.

Your plastic and metal weight saving theories have you read it somewhere or are you just assuming the benefits? If it is of plastic i can see only one reason why they used plastic there that is to eliminate the chances of corrosion on the piston.

And Brakes India is TVS-Girling they supply for their two wheeler division.

January edition BIKE says that in thier long term Pulsar 220 they have an issue with the rear brake. And the same has been noticed in many other Pulsar 220s.

I have ridden an RTR and the brakes were good.

I don't know what you think but the fact is they did have many other competitors from Escorts and Kinetic in the moped market.

I do not see how a piston can get corroded when it is in oil. Anyways ,the pulsar kit is a break up of 2 fibre rods and ergonomically , mechanically ,i think they are much better .

I can say that when i did try buying the master cylinder kit , I am sure i saw tvs motor company and not girling .
regarding pulsars rear drum ,i am sure ,because I havent come across any problems .
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
octavia 1.9 TDI, 99k done, Is it time to get new piston rings ? rishirich27 Technical Stuff 14 21st April 2010 18:43
piston rings - how do i know? (head gasket change as well) silver_shadow Technical Stuff 27 27th October 2008 21:43
Piston Rings NitinGirish Motorbikes 16 16th October 2008 13:20
How do piston rings work? jat Technical Stuff 10 5th November 2006 07:33
Hells Bells rings in Hells Bells Introduce yourself 7 5th April 2006 21:05


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:33.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks