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Old 7th October 2008, 19:29   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Guys a peculiar issue with the bike, at some times on idling the revs start climbing & go as high 2-2.5 rpm.
This is not frequent but has happened 5-6 times so far, I tried adjusting the idling screw which does a temporary job.
The bike runs absolutely fine otherwise.

Please guide.
It used to happen with my Karizma. I think you need to check the accelerator (it may not be @ 0 throttle when we want it to)
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Old 7th October 2008, 20:54   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieroid View Post
There are no mods as such on my RTR as it was set-up for Group D Race specs. It runs different jetting, a blue printed engine and better state of tune. My RTR beats the pulp out of my R15 .
Whats the official 0-60 or 0-80 timings for RTR and R15? The EFI RTR is supposed to be quite a bit quicker I thought?
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Old 8th October 2008, 22:48   #48
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The RTR EFi is quicker than the zma in the 0-60 sprint but slower than the R15
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Old 9th October 2008, 01:07   #49
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0-60 kph times (source OD?)

P220 = 4.1 s
RTR-Fi = 4.73 s
RTR-C= 5.2 s
HUNK = 5.5 s

Last edited by Mpower : 9th October 2008 at 01:12.
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Old 9th October 2008, 02:35   #50
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Techno, can you please share your perception of RTR after driving Karizma? Does RTR engage you enough to keep you happy?

I took a test drive today (I had a Karizma, and am now riding my friend's RE Bullet Machismo 350) - I found the first gear / second gear response pretty smooth. But I think there was a break in 'flow' in 2-3 and 3-4 gears. It was not as engaging as the Karizma.
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Old 9th October 2008, 12:10   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
0-60 kph times (source OD?)

P220 = 4.1 s
RTR-Fi = 4.73 s
RTR-C= 5.2 s
HUNK = 5.5 s
These figures are a joke. A pulsar 220 doing it in 4.1secs on a v-box is utter crap.
The R15 would get to 60 in 4.6 secs.
I've tested my Group D RTR on the same Overdrive V-box.
Timings were, 0-60 - 4.44 secs(best), 0-100 - 13.6 secs(avg of 3 runs), Top-speed attained in 600mtrs - 124.7kmph, however recorded 130kmph on the speedgun in a 1km stretch. My RTR would casually smoke the best p220 with the best rider and the best launch, so how true is this 4.1 figure.Also from our tests the P220 is quite slow. My RTR had to be controlled a lot to not let it wheelie during the launches. Wheelie control in itself was a big-deal.
A carb RTR would clock 0-60 in 4.9 secs. RTR FI is 4.65(source - Times Auto)

Quote:
Originally Posted by balenopower View Post
The RTR EFi is quicker than the zma in the 0-60 sprint but slower than the R15
Nope! The Zma is slower, as per V-BOX results from the right sources. The RTR needs to be kept in the boil to get the right results.

Last edited by Technocrat : 9th October 2008 at 19:23.
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Old 9th October 2008, 14:19   #52
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Techno must be feeling very good reading all your responses Joel
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Old 9th October 2008, 15:52   #53
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fieroid,
How would you rate the classic suzuki-fiero engine to race-ful(?) throttle inputs, the willingness of the engine per se, against the carb RTR?
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Old 9th October 2008, 19:22   #54
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Quote:
Techno, can you please share your perception of RTR after driving Karizma? Does RTR engage you enough to keep you happy?
Shriram as yet its too early as I have done just 400 kms. But the over all feel is good. The bike has good torque at lower revs very nice for commuting even the small bursts that I had it picks up decently although ZMA was definitely better but like I said its too early to comment.

Sankar: Yeah with Joel on my side I dont need to defend

Btw figured out that the so called lap timer is actually a 0-60 time recorder & my under running in bike showed me 5.7secs for one of the short bursts that I did
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Old 27th October 2008, 15:30   #55
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Default First Service Update

The bike had done 650 kms till last Saturday so rode the Pulsar last week for a change :-)

Got the bike service yesterday, two things have improved after this service

1) The chain noise(it used to strike aginst cover I think)
2) The rear brake position is now better & bike brakes perfectly now.

I have put up a small comparo of all the bike I have owned Here (P180 DTSi V1 VS Karizma VS Apache RTR)
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Old 28th October 2008, 04:18   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieroid
Thats what I've normally seen. The bore comes with a standard 20-25 microns clearance. For race application the clearance must be 50-60 microns. Only then the engine would be free revving.
That's actually interesting. A larger bore clearance would mean more blow-by and higher fuel losses to the crankcase; although you would get a higher temperature tolerance, thereby increasing reliablity at high revs. But you're also running a risk of higher skirt wear.

Another point to think of; if the bore clearance is increased without any alterations to the rings, wouldn't there be a drop in compression, thereby leading to torque losses through the lower rev-range- say, 2-4k? Are you absolutely sure about this? From what I've seen, high-performance engines have higher bore clearance to avoid piston slap, but FE & low RPM torque are sacrificed in the bargain...



Quote:
Originally Posted by balenopower
The RTR EFi is quicker than the zma
Quote:
Originally Posted by fieroid
Nope! The Zma is slower,
Err....isn't that the same thing? I'm confused....the ZMA's slower than R15/RTR to 60 Kmph, right? At least on paper, from sheer power to weight ratios....

Does anybody have the valve specs on the RTR/R15/ZMA? In/Ex dia? Runner lengths? I faintly remember those of the ZMA, but need to re-check...perhaps we can see which engine's got more potential...

P.S - another quick doubt; the stock bore clearance, as quoted, is 0.02mm (20 microns); since TVS's have cast pistons, I thought they were supposed to have 0.04-0.05mm clearance as stock.... I remember that forged pistons should ideally be around 0.07-0.10mm for race applications.....

P.P.S - Any specific reason for not taking the FI, Techno?

Last edited by veyron1 : 28th October 2008 at 04:21.
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Old 28th October 2008, 11:12   #57
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Veyron1, FI is 9k more than FI & there is only one service center in Pune which can service the FI. Too much hassle for a bike which will be primarily used for Commuting.
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Old 28th October 2008, 15:46   #58
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Answers in italics!

That's actually interesting. A larger bore clearance would mean more blow-by and higher fuel losses to the crankcase; although you would get a higher temperature tolerance, thereby increasing reliablity at high revs. But you're also running a risk of higher skirt wear.

Reply - We are not talking about running clearances more than normal. 45-50 microns is what a stock engine will get to after running for about 5000kms. For racing, its not possible to run-in all the engines, so its horned to a slightly higher bore clearance than stock horning (thats 20-25microns). Skirt wear would only happen if you end up with "rocking" and thats with running more than normal clearances. On these engines, the wear out limit is 80-100 microns. 0.1mm will give clear cut sealing issues.
-------------------------
Another point to think of; if the bore clearance is increased without any alterations to the rings, wouldn't there be a drop in compression, thereby leading to torque losses through the lower rev-range- say, 2-4k? Are you absolutely sure about this? From what I've seen, high-performance engines have higher bore clearance to avoid piston slap, but FE & low RPM torque are sacrificed in the bargain...

My previous reply pretty much answers this. No clearances more than normal is run. 50 microns is proper run-in clearance for most air-cooled engines.
Yes, what u say is true. Sealing issues will always results in lower FE, torque loss and the rev range will never stay punchy.


---------------------------
Err....isn't that the same thing? I'm confused....the ZMA's slower than R15/RTR to 60 Kmph, right? At least on paper, from sheer power to weight ratios....


Oh yeah, I was confused with BP's reply.
The RTR FI and R15 is faster than the Karizma in all ranges. ofcourse the power to weight ratio is an advantage, more on R15's side. Followed by RTR FI.


---------------------------

Does anybody have the valve specs on the RTR/R15/ZMA? In/Ex dia? Runner lengths? I faintly remember those of the ZMA, but need to re-check...perhaps we can see which engine's got more potential...


Valve values,
RTR - Inlet - 27.5mm, ext - 24mm
Karizma - Inlet - 31.5mm, ext - 26mm
R15 - Inlet - 19.5mm 2 , ext - 17mm 2

The RTR with the smallest valve sizes and the smallest port, does a lot more. Which is the most interesting part. So you know how much under valved the Fiero/RTR engine is and which has the highest potential.
The R15 and Karizma has pretty much decent valve sizes and also considering the port dimensions.


----------------------------

P.S - another quick doubt; the stock bore clearance, as quoted, is 0.02mm (20 microns); since TVS's have cast pistons, I thought they were supposed to have 0.04-0.05mm clearance as stock.... I remember that forged pistons should ideally be around 0.07-0.10mm for race applications.....

The stock bore clearance is 20 microns, since its an air cooled engine. You need to run-in well to get to the optimum 45-50 microns. Hence race bikes are horned with different clearances than production blocks.
Not only forged, liquid cooled engines can run higher clearances. 70-80 microns easily. They have service limits over 100microns.


Cheers,
Joel
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Old 28th October 2008, 19:18   #59
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@Tehno: Ah, ok.

@fieroid; Well, that's what I was thinkin...in terms of bore clearance for engines...

Thanks a bunch for posting the valve specs. Have been searching all over for a comparo...!

Now that you mention the valve specs... It seems that the ZMA has the least E/I at ratio at 0.82, followed by the R15 at 0.871, and neck -n- neck to the RTR at 0.872; although the R15 has 4 valves in SOHC as opposed to the ZMA/RTR's 2-vlave config. Holy cow. Seems kinda pointless to tune the ZMA, coz its a torque monster, and will never be a screamer....!

One more to seal the fates....any idea with respect to the rod/stroke ratios of ZMA/RTR/R15? We can determine the piston speeds and mod-dability...I'm guessing that the undersquare dimensions of the ZMA (65.5x66.2) would trail the pack with the least, followed by the undersquare R15 (57x58.7) and then the only oversquare in the pack, RTR (62x52.9).

But then....the R15's already running a compression of 10.4:1, whereas the RTR is relativley understressed at 9.5 (followed by the ZMA at 9)...

Actually, it does seem that the RTR would be the most capable of the three...

Chah. How I wish TVS would give us a 250cc parallel twin FI Apache...!
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Old 28th October 2008, 20:15   #60
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Seems kinda pointless to tune the ZMA, coz its a torque monster, and will never be a screamer....!

Now, this is something we need to shout into the ears of those who consider the karizma a sports bike. However sadly in India, people do not know how to categorise an engine based on its specs. To all those who would like to call the karizma a screamer.


Actually, it does seem that the RTR would be the most capable of the three...

Ahem......Didnt I tell this earlier itself. From every point, it has the highest mod capabilities. Even despite the fact that the R15 is 4-valve or the Karizma having 65cc extra or any other Indian 4-stroke.
However, in the hands of a monkey an RTR cant be tricked. It needs the right approach.
Plain reason why I love this Fiero/RTR platform.
The best screamer sold in the country today is the RTR.

Ok, do you want the rod lengths of these? Dont remember everything off my head. R15 is 100mm.

Note - U will never find the valve data or the rest almost anywhere, unless u personally measure them. I have done my homework for most data.

Joel
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