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Old 28th October 2008, 20:33   #61
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Originally Posted by fieroid View Post
Seems kinda pointless to tune the ZMA, coz its a torque monster, and will never be a screamer....!

Now, this is something we need to shout into the ears of those who consider the karizma a sports bike. However sadly in India, people do not know how to categorise an engine based on its specs. To all those who would like to call the karizma a screamer.
Tuning is not necessarily making an engine a screamer! Well, if a Bullet can be tuned... The midrange torque is something that i'm enjoying on the Karizma now. Karizma's engine was never meant to be a screamer, that's why it's being used in a trail bike and not some street bike.. except here in India. I don't take tha Karizma to be a sports bike, but more like an excellent allrounder.
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Old 28th October 2008, 20:52   #62
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Tuning is not necessarily making an engine a screamer! Well, if a Bullet can be tuned... The midrange torque is something that i'm enjoying on the Karizma now. Karizma's engine was never meant to be a screamer, that's why it's being used in a trail bike and not some street bike.. except here in India. I don't take tha Karizma to be a sports bike, but more like an excellent allrounder.
Its not you my friend. There are a lot more other karizma owners in this country who call it such...yeah a screamer. . People were after getting high rev CDIs and what not. Point is, with its current stroke, 9500rpm itself is pretty good. Anything more will be a big risk. Rod flexing, piston wear...well lets keep those nightmares away for now.
I guess tuning for you is the fueling part. Well for me, tuning is taking the engine to next levels. . To be more specific, performance tuning.
Anything will sell in India man, as long as some good posters and ads are there to help. A long stroke motor is always fun on an a twisty hill or to cruise at a relaxed 100+.

Last edited by Technocrat : 29th October 2008 at 07:51. Reason: Only two smilies per post allowed
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Old 28th October 2008, 20:57   #63
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Ahem. FYI, I own a '05 ZMA. Close to mint condition, with no mods yet. 13.5K kms run. I'm happy that she does 130 in an unstressed manner, and takes off-roading with mighty gusto. But...am not happy with the, erm, "performance". Of course, I'll be getting a nice machine sometime later (for me, WOT begins at 200 kays), but until then...

@fieroid; Neat. Actually, I do my homework as well, but somehow, I find it easier to tinker with cars...

Now, we need the R/S ratios. Maybe we can get deeper into engine dynamics. Perhaps list out all possiblities for future reference, if need be..

@sankar; True that. Anybody with perseverence can tune an engine. The goal, however, has to be consistent...meaning that an engine can be tuned to make it more efficient; but we cannot surpass the manufacturer's drawing boards, can we....as tinkerers, we can only work with the platforms manufacturers give us, and we do not have a whole lot of choice here..

The ZMA was DESIGNED to be a nice commuter. It excels at that.

But hey, I'm sure that no other bike currently available can surpass a ZMA in off-roading. All thanks to that beautiful TORQUE curve.. a' la CRF 230..
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Old 28th October 2008, 21:05   #64
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Originally Posted by fieroid View Post
For racing, its not possible to run-in all the engines, so its horned to a slightly higher bore clearance than stock horning (thats 20-25microns).
What if it is possible to run in the engine? Are you saying that honing is a replacement for running in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fieroid View Post
The stock bore clearance is 20 microns, since its an air cooled engine. You need to run-in well to get to the optimum 45-50 microns. Hence race bikes are horned with different clearances than production blocks.
Not only forged, liquid cooled engines can run higher clearances. 70-80 microns easily. They have service limits over 100microns.
Bore clearance is always tighter in the liquid cooled engine, not the other way around.
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Old 28th October 2008, 21:06   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieroid View Post
Its not you my friend. There are a lot more other karizma owners in this country who call it such...yeah a screamer. . People were after getting high rev CDIs and what not. Point is, with its current stroke, 9500rpm itself is pretty good. Anything more will be a big risk. Rod flexing, piston wear...well lets keep those nightmares away for now.
I guess tuning for you is the fueling part. Well for me, tuning is taking the engine to next levels. . To be more specific, performance tuning.
Anything will sell in India man, as long as some good posters and ads are there to help. A long stroke motor is always fun on an a twisty hill or to cruise at a relaxed 100+.
Nope, not the fueling part alone. You know except the porting part everything that i did on the Bullet i did it by myself, but those days are over. Thing is my budget is kind of limited now. So i'm doing it up step by step. The most easiest and cheapest is the fueling part and of course there were gains to be made in doing it, so i just started with it. And fueling i can do every night when i come home at 7 or 8pm and again make the bike ready for the next day's grind.
Cam, porting, higher compression etc have to wait till.. sigh don't know when. Earlier i used to have time to run around getting these done, but now time is also very limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
The ZMA was DESIGNED to be a nice commuter. It excels at that.

But hey, I'm sure that no other bike currently available can surpass a ZMA in off-roading. All thanks to that beautiful TORQUE curve.. a' la CRF 230..
That's why i bought it it does a bit of everything well!
Even though the engine is basically the same, but the CRF230 and Karizma cam timings are different, electrics too.

Last edited by Sankar : 28th October 2008 at 21:10.
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Old 28th October 2008, 21:29   #66
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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
What if it is possible to run in the engine? Are you saying that honing is a replacement for running in?



Bore clearance is always tighter in the liquid cooled engine, not the other way around.
I dont mean horning a stock cylinder is an excuse to running-in. At the manufacturing stage itself, the clearances are set sligtly higher than normal to get better revvability since its not easy to do a running process on a race bike. As a street bike, you can surely do a good run-in process. NOt on a race bike. They run the engines engough to seal the rings though. I'm talking about stock class race bikes clearance only. Modified engines are run-in for atleast 500kms, hard and smooth to get the best sealing.

FYI, LC engines run higher clearances than AC engines. However the clearances differ from engine to engine. Please check on this yourself. LC engines can take higher temperatures courtesy high comp and rpm.
You might wanna check on this.

@veyron - Good stuff there mate

@Shankar - I know man.
FYI, the CRF230 and Karizma has the same cam timing in stock trims. However must never run the CRF in stock trim, hence valve timing changes, courtesy the cam mods.
CRF230 is AC and our Zma is DC.

Last edited by fieroid : 28th October 2008 at 21:31.
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Old 29th October 2008, 02:05   #67
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Bore clearance is a compromise between friction at sealing compression. Too tight means too much friction and too loose means loss of compression and slap.

The number you see in the manual is the cold number. At running temperature the piston expands and so does the bore, but depending on the material used (thremal co-eff of expansion) they expand more or less.
Usually the piston is aluminum and the liner is iron and since Al expands more than iron, it only exacerbates the issue.

In an air cooled engine, the cooling is much less effective compared to a LC and threfore it runs hotter and expands more. If the clearance is too tight then the piston expands more than the bore and the engine will "seize". Therefore all hi-performance air cooled street engines and racing engines use a large bore clearance so that it does not seize at high thermal loads. At cold temps (first time engine start) the clearance is really low and hence you hear piston slap. The Shogun was pretty famous for this.

Clearance wise, the R15 is at the other extreme because it uses a LC engine that has a linerless Al bore. The clearance should be as tight as they come w/o hurting friction. AFAIK, the running in process is only to seat the rings to the bore and will result in a very small wear on the rings.

Last edited by Mpower : 29th October 2008 at 02:35.
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Old 29th October 2008, 10:57   #68
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@Technocrat: The akternator will not produce enought power for the DC set up as the load factor is higher than the input. You can plonk the osram night breaker in the refelector without mods, but you will get 95% of the complete illumination. Note that the RTR Rectifier supports 60/55W without much head aches.

Pm me if you need more info
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Old 29th October 2008, 11:22   #69
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Osram night breaker is 35/30w Or 60/55?

You mean to say the RTR can take 60/55 bulb without any relay or any such mods?
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Old 29th October 2008, 11:57   #70
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Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Osram night breaker is 35/30w Or 60/55?

You mean to say the RTR can take 60/55 bulb without any relay or any such mods?
Osram Nightbreaker +90 is 55/60.

I doubt the alternator would be able to provide the juice to power a 55/60.
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Old 29th October 2008, 12:02   #71
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Thanks Sankar, even I doubt & hence the question
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Old 29th October 2008, 12:17   #72
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I have been running my RTR 180 (old Apache Stroke with the RTR head and bore) with Osram Silver Star 60/55W till date without any issues. But you can see that the illumination will at its best after 2k rpm. Note Silverstar and night breaker has the same power rating, but with different appilicability.

The best thing the bike revs to a neat 11.5k rpm without hassles.

Cheers.
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Old 29th October 2008, 12:19   #73
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That sounds good. SO which one is recommended Night Breaker or Silver Star?

I might try it first with my Cars stock 60/55 bulbs(spare) too
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Old 29th October 2008, 12:57   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
I have been running my RTR 180 (old Apache Stroke with the RTR head and bore) with Osram Silver Star 60/55W till date without any issues. But you can see that the illumination will at its best after 2k rpm. Note Silverstar and night breaker has the same power rating, but with different appilicability.

The best thing the bike revs to a neat 11.5k rpm without hassles.

Cheers.
Kedar, pardon me for going OT.
Hows the performance of your custom Apache 180? How would you compare it with the RTR? Have you done only the cylinder & cyl head swap or have you gone the full monty with the mods I would like to know more about your bike!
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Old 29th October 2008, 13:24   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Bore clearance is a compromise between friction at sealing compression. Too tight means too much friction and too loose means loss of compression and slap.

.
Exactly. And we are not talking about going overboard on bore clearances. So going too loose is never recommended. Race application clearances are something else.
The R15 runs higher clearance than the other aircooled engines. I have measured the bore clearance on my engine. its well over 50 microns on an engine which had hardly run 1000kms. The rings just slide into the bore without any drame compared to other AC engines.
I can hear a mild piston slap on my R15. What do u say then?

Also the bit of running-in of the rings of around 100kms is all that will take to seal the rings. However, this is the process most race teams follow. I just mentioned it here.

Joel
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