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Old 11th February 2009, 20:34   #16
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Originally Posted by speed0mania View Post
hi SRK! well my final year project was similar to this i made a hybrid gokart so been through all these niggling problems!....
....Hope i have been of some help and not added to your misery! PM me if you have any queries or need any other help will be more than happy to help you out, if you want i can mail you my project report too. Just remember don't compromise anywhere, My accelerator cable broke 2 hours before my viva went mad running around and replacing it just in time!
Thanks!
I will let you know if I need anything

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Originally Posted by hollywoodhogan View Post
interesting and relevant project for todays world. good luck.

my inputs -
the centrifugal clutch is mounted on the gearbox end (rear wheel)and connected to the engine crank via the belt-vario-drive. once the rear wheel starts rotating beyond a designated speed, the clutch will engage and drive the belt and then the vario and then the engine will start to crank over and overload the motor drive.

using a vario scooter initially to all and me appears to be the best choice but the above issue is a complex one to resolve IF the electric motor is going to push the vehicle beyond the centrifugal clutch engagement speed, which is not much. mounting the batteries in the floor board and the motor on the front wheel would be easy but then it would result in traction problem on loose surfaces which could be risky.
The concept is a bit complex and thats why we plan to change it.

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Originally Posted by _abhay_ View Post
The control action you are planning needs to be much more coplex than this. What you are planning to have is a simple ON/OFF control action....
...Considering the complexity i believe 8051 might not be enough, and we might have to send the data to a PC or a linux based machine to resolve the algorithm.
Thanks!
I knew that this programming part would not be simple.
Its easier to imagine that actually make things work.
I have planned to change the design a bit,will need your help.


OK so after going through all your inputs I have decided to change the concept. It will still be a hybrid but the working will be a bit different then what I had in mind.

After going through srishiva's input, I had a talk with my friends and we have decide to make Series Hybrid.
It is simpler than parallel hybrid though the main element is still the Electronics part (but this time its mainly for charging purpose).Abhay I'll need your help here.


But now since there are a bit more people getting involved in the project,there is a chance that it may turn to be a 4-wheeler (thats what most people are interested in) not sure though since everything is still in the drawing board stage and things can change easily

Will update soon.
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Old 16th February 2009, 22:23   #17
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Allright so we have decided to use an existing scooter as earlier but this time we have planned to make a Series Hybrid out of it.

In a Series Hybrid, only the Electric motor will be powering the wheels.
The Engine will just charge the batteries.
We also plan to charge the battery by using AC Source (230V), similar to what YoBikes use.


Ok, here is a simple block diagram:
Name:  Seriescopy.jpg
Views: 3867
Size:  40.1 KB

Now I need your help for the electronic/electrical part.
I know a few basics about the subject but not much.

Charging By Engine:
1. The Controller checks the battery level. If it falls below a certain value the Engine is started.
2. Engine powers the Generator which in-turn charges the battery.
3. When the battery is fully charged engine is switched off.

Now,
To start the engine we will need to crank it first, so one input has to go to the starter motor and as soon the engine starts it needs to cut-off. (may be a timer ciruit can be used)
Also there has to be a continuous supply of current to Ignition System till the engine needs to run.

Is it possible to create a simple circuit for the above process?

Also, when the generator charges the battery, is it possible that the battery gets charged quickly since the electric motor will be drawing out the power at the same time. I mean is it possible to have a same rate of output and input of power to the battery and can these take place simultaneously?



Charging by AC source (230V):
1. As soon as the power source is switched on the controller checks the battery level, if it is below a certain level, charging takes place.
2. After the Battery completely charges the power source is cut-off.

What kind of circuit will be used here.
I know about a Transformer, what else?

As I mentioned I am not good with Electronics I would like if you can help me out with selecting the components and other things. May be even designing the circuit.

Also is it possible for a normal 12V car battery to handle all this?


Thanks,
Shoeb
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Old 18th February 2009, 22:03   #18
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Umm.. No reply? Where are all the experts. Wish this topic was in Technical thread.


I currently need help in the battery part.
I found out that Car battery are not easy to recharge and wont last if they are completely drained i.e it will last for only 10-15 cycles.

I would like to know what battery (12V) should I use.

I basically want to charge it at a particular voltage to its max value and if possible in a short time.
The charging would be done by an alternator run by the engine.
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Old 19th February 2009, 15:00   #19
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first of all you need to know what range of current you require! based on the motor you're using! charging time will also depend on the alternator you're using!
Yes normal automotive batteries are not very happy with complete discharge and recharge, try using a normal Lead acid battery as they're sturdy not very environmentally friendly but efficient for such a purpose. Go to an inverter retail/repair guy, these guys used to make batteries themselves earlier but were shut down (in delhi at least) due to excessive lead being used and not disposed properly! but give it a shot, I used a standard automotive battery as it never discharged completely! as due to the lack of self start i had to let the ingine idle all through :( but still explained my concept.
My Hybrid works more or less as a series hybrid for the initial accelerator dwell and then a normal ICE car when more power is needed.
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Old 19th February 2009, 19:16   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed0mania View Post
first of all you need to know what range of current you require! based on the motor you're using! charging time will also depend on the alternator you're using!
Yes normal automotive batteries are not very happy with complete discharge and recharge, try using a normal Lead acid battery as they're sturdy not very environmentally friendly but efficient for such a purpose. Go to an inverter retail/repair guy, these guys used to make batteries themselves earlier but were shut down (in delhi at least) due to excessive lead being used and not disposed properly! but give it a shot, I used a standard automotive battery as it never discharged completely! as due to the lack of self start i had to let the ingine idle all through :( but still explained my concept.
My Hybrid works more or less as a series hybrid for the initial accelerator dwell and then a normal ICE car when more power is needed.
Thanks for the reply.
I'll try to find out about the inverter battery.

Is there any topic about your Hybrid concept here? I would like to read through it.
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Old 20th February 2009, 12:04   #21
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unfortunately didn't get time to put it up! will do it soon, was thinking about putting it up. will let you know once its done
Best of luck!
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Old 20th February 2009, 23:53   #22
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Originally Posted by SRK View Post
I and my friends are planning to make a hybrid addon kit for scooters as our college project.
We needed some guidance and I thought T-BHP would be the perfect place for it.
1st of all I would like to tell you that we are people full of theories and we donít have much practical knowledge, so we need your help.


CONCEPT:
Here is our concept.
The scooter that we plan to use will be a Gearless type (Kinetic, Honda activa, etc.)
We would use a DC motor to power the wheels.

The scooter would use electric powered motor to run at slow speeds or when it is at rest.
The Engine would power the wheels when the rider accelerates even after reaching the max speed of the electric motor.

Here is a basic block diagram that explains a few things that we have in our minds.
Attachment 98373

SWITCHING CIRCUIT/CONTROLLER:
This is the most important part and the one where we are facing a problem. We donít know much about Electronics/Programming and will need some help from an expert.
Basically our requirement is as follows:
Speed sensor detects speed and sends a signal to the Switching circuit or Controller.
Conditions:
(i) At rest (0km/hr):
1. Detect speed (i.e. 0km/hr)
2. Give signal to controller.
3. Controller starts electric motor.
4. Wheels are powered by electric motor upto max speed of motor (say 20km/hr)

(ii) Above max speed of Electric motor (say 20km/hr).
1. Detect speed
2. Give signal to controller.
3. Controller Starts Engine and Engages Clutch.
4. Wheels are powered by the engine.
5. Controller switches off the electric motor.

(iii) 0-5km/hr:
1. Detect speed, if speed falls below 5km/hr or scooter comes to rest then go to step2.
2. Give signal to controller.
3. Controller starts Electric motor.
4. Wheels are powered by electric motor.
5. Clutch is disengaged and Engine is Switched off.

Is it possible to have a controller that can do all the above mentioned processes? Can you give some suggestions?



SPEED CONTROLLING:

Engine will be controlled the same way as it does in a normal scooter (mechanically).
Electric motor can be controlled by attaching a potentiometer on the accelerator lever itself.

We also plan to attach a clutch if possible between the wheel and the engine so that when the electric motor starts we can disengage the engine and then switch it off and engage it back when the engine starts.

Is it ok to run the wheels with the electric motor while the engine is switched off ? Is it possible?
The reason is because the engine would then be directly connected to the wheel by a belt/chain and motion of the wheel would rotate the gear and thus the belt/chain and thus the engine output shaft. Would there be any drawbacks?
I think because of this the motor would have to take the load and hence we are planning to use a clutch.




I would like you to help me out with this project.
I will be posting the future changes that we will be making in the design of the kit.
You can point out the drawbacks and give in your ideas.

Thanks,
Shoeb
Actually two 555's should do the job for you if you are not looking at acadamic perfection.
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Old 21st February 2009, 08:57   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed0mania View Post
unfortunately didn't get time to put it up! will do it soon, was thinking about putting it up. will let you know once its done
Best of luck!
Thanks! I am waiting for your topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arunmur View Post
Actually two 555's should do the job for you if you are not looking at acadamic perfection.
I have actually changed the whole concept from Parallel to Series Hybrid.
So can you help regarding to that.

I remember that we had used IC555 for some practical, may be it was for timer circuits.
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Old 23rd February 2009, 12:50   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRK View Post
Also, when the generator charges the battery, is it possible that the battery gets charged quickly since the electric motor will be drawing out the power at the same time. I mean is it possible to have a same rate of output and input of power to the battery and can these take place simultaneously?

I have two different thoughts about this.

1) Have the IC engine drive a generator and the generator directly drives the motor bypassing the battery. Battery will be charged only when surplus is available with the generator.


2) Have two or multiple sets of batteries, one set is used while other is being charged, and employ a circuit to switch over when the battery is about to drain. in this system we can have multiple methods of charging the battery like Solar etc
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Old 23rd February 2009, 23:47   #25
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ok not trying to add to your confusion here! but for me, one of the most important things was to have the vehicle drivable independantly on either power source too! this adds to the reliability, as in having them in parallel rather than series, even if one power source fails at least you won't be stranded, was difficult getting the gear ratios right as it was a gearless system so had to sacrifice a little acceleration from halt for the IC engine and a little sacrifice on the top speed of the DC motor but none the less i think its a better system if you can work it out! a series hybrid just ends up as quite an inefficient system, so if you can manage it stick to a parallel!
You have to be sure why you're doing this to get something thats efficient and better than existing systems or wether its just a fancy project that sounds cool and looks good on your resume! not trying to offend you but think about it.
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Old 24th February 2009, 00:59   #26
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I would suggest otherwise,
I am sure you are not planning to sell you bike or show the world you can DIY a tested system.The best thing is doing something out of the box, so that you get to learn something different from it. you just don't want to reinvent the wheel. Also something wacky will definitely look good on your resume ( it shows you are different and not a part of the heard)
I strongly suggest you come up with your own design (as your PS jobs)
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Old 24th February 2009, 12:08   #27
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@_abhay: the idea's not to sell the bike or show anything to the world but, its an ENGINEERING project and not a hobby modification project where your motive is to be different have something customized to your liking, all that is secondary at least thats the way i think. It has to make engineering sense and not just something thats different! a hybrid project is pretty much reinventing the wheel, if thats what you'd like to call it! And thats what you need to do if you want to improve on something. Just my thoughts.
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Old 24th February 2009, 12:24   #28
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Just FYI
Ford did not want to follow series hybrid, because if you need more power immediately (like in mountains) and frequently, there is nothing like charging a battery quickly multiple times in case the reserve has dropped. So they wanted to rely on the IC engine to provide the extra power when needed.

For a series hybrid, you can still directly drive the motor from the generator to accomplish this (by relying more on the most powerful computer in ones brain to decide manually).
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Old 24th February 2009, 20:25   #29
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Allright!

1st of all Yes we want to be different (atleast a bit) and thats the reason I haven't gone and looked up on other projects or available resources.
I first wanted to come-out with my ideas and then see if they are applicable.
I can imagine a lot but just don't know how to go and get it done. If I can have the right kind of help I promise to create a really good product.

If possible then in future we can add the following things in the scooter:
1. Solar Charging.
2. AC point Charging.
3. Hub Motor.
4. Complete Drive-by-wire.

Our main problem is lack of knowledge in the field of electronics.
Also we want this system to be simple yet efficient.

@abhay: Liked your idea of using two separate battery packs. May be we can implement this.Only if we can find light weight ones.

@speed0mania: You point is quite valid. Today my friend explained me the same thing.
He said what if the battery is totally drained (scooter is at rest) at that time I'll have to keep the engine running untill the battery charges and then after waiting for a long period I get to ride it.
So inorder to overcome the above problem he suggested to have an option of powering the wheels by IC engine.


Right now we plan to make a scooter which will be almost manual in terms of charging,shifting the power source etc. so that we will atleast have something running.
And then if we get the required help we can slowly turn it into an Automatic version by incorporating electronic components.

We need to start working on this project the next day our exams ends (probably June start) and complete it within 10 weeks.
Currently searching for an old gearless scooter.

@srishiva: Its true that the motor may not be able to give the required power. But I feel it should atleast be able to climb on our flyovers as I have seen some Yobikes actually struggle to reach the top.
So we have decided to use a manual way (by lever) of powering the wheels by IC engine.

Last edited by SRK : 24th February 2009 at 20:31.
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Old 8th March 2009, 15:10   #30
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Hey SRK finally put up my write up see if it helps or if you have any questions or ideas that you could pick up!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post1203557 (HYPER-V! HYbrid Petro ElectRic Vehicle!)
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