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Old 22nd February 2009, 13:28   #16
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Originally Posted by SuperSyn View Post
"Mighty" BMW are quite irrelevant when it comes to motorcycles, though they are taking steps to rectify it. The J-4 (and Ducati) have had extremely reliable FI bikes for years. It's year 2009 not 2002.

As told to me by an engineer: the reason we do not get FI in India is not only cost, but that most bikes are air cooled. Running a very lean mixture with FI (for mileage) or burning more fuel (for power) will both cause a rise in temperatures, and managing that is difficult as it is for Indian heat and riding conditions (low speeds, high loads).

Liquid cooling helps, but then the initial price of the product increases so you might as well sell a larger capacity 'lazy' air-cooled engine with lower acquisition cost.
Not sure what you are basing your opinions on, but BMW Motorrad is far from irrelevant.

1. Most of revolutionary technological advancements in street motorcycle technologies are courtesy of BMW. ABS, ESA (recent), recirculating wet sump lubrication, telescopic forks (earlier) to name a few.

2. They used to own the Paris-Dakar (toughest motorcycle rally in the world) till a few years ago when KTM started wiping the floor. A quick search on Google will reveal that the last Japanese winner was Yamaha in 1998.

The Japanese are the best at putting things together. But they are far from the best at pushing the envelope. If it makes it easier to relate, there is only one iPhone, yet there are 10 different clones that offer better battery life, reception, durability etc. at a cheaper price. Does that make the iPhone irrelevant on a time scale of achievement?

My opinion on why we haven't seen FI become the norm in India is that it is not just a matter of designing one component. For a bullet proof FI system to work, kinks in cooling, O2 sensor technology, fuel quality need to be ironed out and incredibly advanced software and electronic support need to be in place. Indian manufacturers aren't that far up on the learning curve yet as the Indian motorcycle buyer isn't that far up on the curve either. It will happen, eventually.

If you want to talk further, let's take this offline. The thread starter is already pissed off about hijacking . To the thread starter, I guess the answer you are looking for is that while there are rumors on the Menace floating around, nothing has been confirmed yet. Could be 2 months, could be 2 years, could be entirely vapor ware. Let us know what you decide though!
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Old 22nd February 2009, 13:49   #17
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Originally Posted by doctorque View Post
i dont know if you have any budget constaints,
but the best buy in the segment available in our country is the R15 quite easily.
Go 4 it.
150cc segment or price segment?

180cc Apache at 80k would be fun.
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Old 22nd February 2009, 21:33   #18
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Erm. Car manufacturers in India have been running high compression engines (from 9.5-10.0:1) running MPFI since decade or so. On Indian fuel. There shouldn't be any problems with a liquid/air-cooled FI bike, if launched after being subjected to regular test norms. But sadly, biking in India is a farce.

What current manufacturers are providing are just excuses. Bull. If FI bikes from 250-1400 cc are running succesfully in such markets with extreme climates as Thailand/Venezuela to UAE/US and the ilk, India shouldn't be a problem. At all.

FYI, the reason for leaving an "x" amount of fuel is to avoid the grime accumulated at the bottom of the tank from getting into the fuel lines (if anybody's ever opened up the fuel lines from the tank, you'd notice that the last couple of cms of the drain pipe is always dirty). Even a small amount of grime can screw up the fuel pump.

TVS and Bajaj haven't done their homework for going FI. Period. There's no other excuse for such poor quality.

Coming back to the original topic, yes, TVS apparently does have a 180 up their sleeve. Sadly, not an FI, AFAIK. Still undergoing tests (under the guise of regular Apaches). Launch date is still unknown. If we're lucky, maybe before Diwali this year. There's also the possibility that TVS might scrap the 180 altogether and launch their liquid-cooled 250 next year...

@smart2smart; If you're looking to buy the ZMA, go right ahead. There's no better bike if you're looking for an all-rounder. Else, go for the RTR carb, if you don't want to loosen those purse strings. But keep in mind that if you'd want to upgrade to a 250 later on, the Apache will not give you as much resale value as the ZMA. If out and out handling is what you're after, go for the R15. NOW. The RTR 160/180/XYZ will never be as good.
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Old 22nd February 2009, 21:50   #19
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thanx veryron, i guess i am confused choosing a bike right now.
too much options to choose from.
right now confused between Zma and R15 or wait for some more months for ninja 250r or cbr150

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Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
Erm. Car manufacturers in India have been running high compression engines (from 9.5-10.0:1) running MPFI since decade or so. On Indian fuel. There shouldn't be any problems with a liquid/air-cooled FI bike, if launched after being subjected to regular test norms. But sadly, biking in India is a farce.

What current manufacturers are providing are just excuses. Bull. If FI bikes from 250-1400 cc are running succesfully in such markets with extreme climates as Thailand/Venezuela to UAE/US and the ilk, India shouldn't be a problem. At all.

FYI, the reason for leaving an "x" amount of fuel is to avoid the grime accumulated at the bottom of the tank from getting into the fuel lines (if anybody's ever opened up the fuel lines from the tank, you'd notice that the last couple of cms of the drain pipe is always dirty). Even a small amount of grime can screw up the fuel pump.

TVS and Bajaj haven't done their homework for going FI. Period. There's no other excuse for such poor quality.

Coming back to the original topic, yes, TVS apparently does have a 180 up their sleeve. Sadly, not an FI, AFAIK. Still undergoing tests (under the guise of regular Apaches). Launch date is still unknown. If we're lucky, maybe before Diwali this year. There's also the possibility that TVS might scrap the 180 altogether and launch their liquid-cooled 250 next year...

@smart2smart; If you're looking to buy the ZMA, go right ahead. There's no better bike if you're looking for an all-rounder. Else, go for the RTR carb, if you don't want to loosen those purse strings. But keep in mind that if you'd want to upgrade to a 250 later on, the Apache will not give you as much resale value as the ZMA. If out and out handling is what you're after, go for the R15. NOW. The RTR 160/180/XYZ will never be as good.
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Old 22nd February 2009, 23:21   #20
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Ok. Let's assume budget isn't a constraint.

Now: R15, as you'll get almost the same performance as a ZMA, but better handling and tighter manners. And a good poser, too. (my 4-year old ZMA is starting to look dated when parked next to the R15s).

If time is not a constraint and you can wait, for say, another year:

Any good 250 that comes out. The Ninja, or the rumoured Yamaha Fazer, or the CBF-xx series...!

EDIT: My dear, you're the only one on TBHP complaining of too many options. We have been breaking our heads over the lack thereof...!!

Last edited by veyron1 : 22nd February 2009 at 23:29.
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Old 22nd February 2009, 23:38   #21
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may be coz i am the only tbhpian who rides a bike once in year
and lack of knowledge about two wheelers in india may be
anyways looking for a machine with some good perfomance and high torques

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Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
Ok. Let's assume budget isn't a constraint.

EDIT: My dear, you're the only one on TBHP complaining of too many options. We have been breaking our heads over the lack thereof...!!
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Old 18th April 2009, 13:06   #22
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Update:
Watch the Apache RTR 180cc teaser here - http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=lldiL1uDEIY

Nicely shot, just love that cornering!

Doesn't look very different from the current RTR. Ad says it makes out 17.3PS which is about about 2 PS higher from the the current RTR and 0.3PS higher than the R15.

Last edited by safari_lover : 18th April 2009 at 13:15.
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Old 18th April 2009, 13:18   #23
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Originally Posted by safari_lover View Post
Update:
Watch the Apache RTR 180cc teaser here - http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=lldiL1uDEIY

Nicely shot, just love that cornering!

Doesn't look very different from the current RTR. Ad says it makes out 17.3PS which is about about 2 PS higher from the the current RTR and 0.3PS higher than the R15.
Link error. m missing in .com

This is the corrected link -

Must say its neatly done. But is it the camera angle or do the tyres look horribly skinny.
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Old 18th April 2009, 14:26   #24
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Duh. Looks almost exactly like the RTR 160. I was hoping for a fairing job at the very least. OK, one more bike crossed off my list.
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Old 18th April 2009, 14:30   #25
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Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
Ok. Let's assume budget isn't a constraint.

Now: R15, as you'll get almost the same performance as a ZMA, but better handling and tighter manners. And a good poser, too. (my 4-year old ZMA is starting to look dated when parked next to the R15s).

If time is not a constraint and you can wait, for say, another year:

Any good 250 that comes out. The Ninja, or the rumoured Yamaha Fazer, or the CBF-xx series...!

EDIT: My dear, you're the only one on TBHP complaining of too many options. We have been breaking our heads over the lack thereof...!!
Not really. The R15, being a very small motor, has all the power at very close to double digit RPMs. I rode one the other day and at anything less than 7000 rpm, the engine feels very sluggish. One can't just look at HP numbers and say two bikes with similar HP will perform similarly. The HP and torque curves determine everyday performance.

You are absolutely right about Karizma's styling being dated. Forget the R15, even the newer Hunks and CBZs have better instrument cluster trim and overall better designs.

But the ZMA still is one very competitive bike.
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Old 18th April 2009, 15:43   #26
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Originally Posted by Fountainheader View Post
Link error. m missing in .com

Must say its neatly done. But is it the camera angle or do the tyres look horribly skinny.
Thanks for the correction.

According to one of the pics on XBHP, the rear tyre is 110/80-17 compared to the 100/80-18 of the current one.

Last edited by safari_lover : 18th April 2009 at 15:44.
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Old 18th April 2009, 15:43   #27
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Cool Ad. Any news of launch dates?
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Old 19th April 2009, 11:14   #28
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
Not really. The R15, being a very small motor, has all the power at very close to double digit RPMs. I rode one the other day and at anything less than 7000 rpm, the engine feels very sluggish. One can't just look at HP numbers and say two bikes with similar HP will perform similarly. The HP and torque curves determine everyday performance.

You are absolutely right about Karizma's styling being dated. Forget the R15, even the newer Hunks and CBZs have better instrument cluster trim and overall better designs.

But the ZMA still is one very competitive bike.

I agree with you that the R15 is sluggish in lower revvs. But it feels game after 4K RPM - Not 7K! (Thats just 3.5K off redlining)

Instrument cluster in R15 is not feature rich, but it is very well done. I liked the feature where it displays the distance traveled from the time the bike entered the reserve.

Also, regarding design, I find R15 is exceptional - To say Hunk and CBZ have overall better design is totally unacceptable - (All said, design is a matter of taste and perception)
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Old 19th April 2009, 12:59   #29
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Originally Posted by sriramv.iyer View Post
I agree with you that the R15 is sluggish in lower revvs. But it feels game after 4K RPM - Not 7K! (Thats just 3.5K off redlining)

Instrument cluster in R15 is not feature rich, but it is very well done. I liked the feature where it displays the distance traveled from the time the bike entered the reserve.

Also, regarding design, I find R15 is exceptional - To say Hunk and CBZ have overall better design is totally unacceptable - (All said, design is a matter of taste and perception)
You misunderstand, I meant Hunk and CBZ have more up to date and fresh design compared to the ZMA. I like the R15's appearance, if only they did something about the bicycle wheels/tires. It just looks like R1 bodywork on commuter wheels (maybe that's the idea?)

Last edited by xxaarraa : 19th April 2009 at 13:01.
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Old 20th April 2009, 01:51   #30
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Really disappointing.. i was expecting some fire-works.. this one looks exactly like the RTR160
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