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Old 9th March 2009, 05:36   #16
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Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
Didn't get this logic of HH recommending 10W30 for the masses. Could you please justify? Also, AFAIK Shell does not make any 20W50 oil for bikes. Their only oil for bikes, Shell Advance S4 is 20W40.

As for the service centre guys acting up, there is no other authorised HH service centre anywhere around my area. Thats the problem. Hero Honda's service seems to have gone to the dogs. My dealer's service centre (Automark Motors, Pune) is the worst experience I'v had at any service centre (car or bike). Not only was their work EXTREMELY sloppy, they are also crafty. No way I'm gonna give them my bike unless I'm present right in front of it, when its done.

As for the veteran mechanic part... that of course is VERY desirable... but I have no idea where to find one... and one that has all the equipment. I'm considering the Castrol Bike zone in my area... but dont have any reports on how good it is. I just hope they will let me watch when they do it.
Whats there to get the oil is one of the cheapest!!!

hence the minimum grade the bike can do with is being recommended.

like wise these good for nothing dealers can use the same grade for their 100cc upto 150cc bikes. ZIMBLE hehe...


as per the shell oil here is the proof of the same. i recommended shell because it has very less or no duplicates in that grade. if you are willing to spend get the motul 300v synthetic oil.

and finally for the mechanic you have to do the homework and find one on your own i cant help you there, may be other pune bhpians may find you some help try pming them!
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Old 9th March 2009, 08:43   #17
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How much gunk did you notice when you cleaned these filters? I'm assuming you were present when it was done...
it was not dirty at all,as before switching to synthetic oil,i used to change oil every 1000kms
now its motul 300V's esters that do the cleaning job
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Old 9th March 2009, 10:38   #18
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Very stupid design! Esp. in the Indian context... where sloppy mechanics will make 100 scratches and very likely do something else wrong too!

Are you sure Castrol 10W30 is better than Gulf Oil?? Have you tried both and compared? The Gulf oil seems really good. The bike has become smoother and accelerates better than before! Couple of other friends I have also like the Gulf oil a lot! I am comparing this with the Hero Honda Idemitsu oil. It is also an extended drain period oil.
I have tried HH, Gulf and Power1. I found Power1 to be the best. For the next change try out Power1 of the recommended grade, it may be better than the Gulf. You'll never know till you try it out. It's a semisynth oil.
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Old 9th March 2009, 11:18   #19
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Hey unless one know the genuine dealer of castrol the probability of finding fake castrols is a lot more these days hence i switched to shell straight from the shell petrol bunks.

so better get the shell or stick to synthetic oil for the best results, couldnt agree with akshay more here, changing the oil every 1000kms was infact the key to the cleaner engine, more over i strongly say dont take the synthetic oil to be too super and out last the or last twice the age of a mineral oil they last slightly more which is true but the point is we pay the price for the GRADE of the SYNTHETIC rather than the Durability that is rumoured around so people please keep this in mind with switiching to synthetic.

and all the best.

Raccoon after all this discussion now i am going to wait for your results and reviews on the same here, do post the results time to time and keep us informed.

i cant do this on my bike because mine is no more a stock bike and other blah blah reasons where i tend to change my oil at different intervals so do give us the reports.
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Old 9th March 2009, 11:25   #20
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Guys, please don't get paranoid and change the oil every 1000km, it's a waste of good oil. If the manufacturer recommends 6000km change it at 5000 that would be safe and not wasteful. Regularly check and top up if need be.
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Old 9th March 2009, 18:39   #21
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Guys, please don't get paranoid and change the oil every 1000km, it's a waste of good oil. If the manufacturer recommends 6000km change it at 5000 that would be safe and not wasteful. Regularly check and top up if need be.
well thats one thing sankar i agree to it but, the way i always change my oil is when ever the bike's gear shifts get a little hard which was usually around 2000kms for my kind of riding on my unicorn i changed the oil.

as we know the gear shifts on unicorn is butter smooth regardless with new oil

its any way better to change the oil at around 2500-3000kms depending on ones riding style, the wear and tear, and finally considering our RIDING conditions this i find it to be the optimum time oil can do in our bikes.

well to each his own cheers.

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Old 10th March 2009, 00:14   #22
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Whats there to get the oil is one of the cheapest!!!

hence the minimum grade the bike can do with is being recommended.

like wise these good for nothing dealers can use the same grade for their 100cc upto 150cc bikes. ZIMBLE hehe...


as per the shell oil here is the proof of the same. i recommended shell because it has very less or no duplicates in that grade. if you are willing to spend get the motul 300v synthetic oil.

and finally for the mechanic you have to do the homework and find one on your own i cant help you there, may be other pune bhpians may find you some help try pming them!
Still dont get the logic of this. Btw, the HH oil is certainly not the cheapest! There definitely are cheaper oils. And IMHO cheap in cost does NOT always mean low quality! I have found the HH Idemitsu oil to do its job quite well. But frankly haven't used it beyond 1 to 2 k km (its rated life is 6,000 km) as my running is low and I have to discard it every 6 months (as per the manual). For the same reason, using a fully synth which costs around Rs. 750 really dosent make sense for me.

And dude, the pic you have posted of the Shell 20W50 oil is a car oil. Definitely not recommended for use in bikes!

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I have tried HH, Gulf and Power1. I found Power1 to be the best. For the next change try out Power1 of the recommended grade, it may be better than the Gulf. You'll never know till you try it out. It's a semisynth oil.
Is that so?? I'll really be surprised! Frankly, I'm biased against Castrol... and for several reasons. Latest being that the company isn't even responsive! No replies to emails, no follow up even after contacting them on phone!! Anyway, as you said, I cannot comment against this particular oil, as I'v never used it. Btw, whats the recommended drain period of this Castrol 10W30 oil? Is it an extended drain period oil like the Gulf and HH oils? Have you compared it to Elf 10W30?

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Guys, please don't get paranoid and change the oil every 1000km, it's a waste of good oil. If the manufacturer recommends 6000km change it at 5000 that would be safe and not wasteful. Regularly check and top up if need be.
I echo that loudly! Several years ago, when we had much lower grades of oil, they still lasted some 2,000 km in Hero Hondas... and probably other 4-stroke bikes too. Most of the latest oils are extended drain period oils, and can safely be expected to last longer... at least 3,500 to 4,000 km in demanding conditions... if not 6,000 km (normal conditions).
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Old 10th March 2009, 11:16   #23
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I haven't tried ELF in Karizma, i tried that in the Bullet and it was good as any other mineral oil. I'm not aware of the Castrol recommended drain period of Power 1, i prefer to change oil at 5k mark. I checked oil level this morning, and i was happy to see that oil still has the golden yellow colour to it after close to 3000kms, level was also fine. Bike has done 7800kms till now.

As a side note: I after the 1st and 2nd free service i never got the bike serviced by the HH dealer, as i wasn't happy with the way bike performed after i got back. Logic: if it ain't broke never fix it Did all the routine maintenance myself. It will hurt the warranty for sure, probably making it void. But anytime better than illinformed "trainee" mechs fiddling around with my bike. And as a result i don't have any problems to report.

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Old 10th March 2009, 11:29   #24
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Originally Posted by rider60 View Post
Whats there to get the oil is one of the cheapest!!!

hence the minimum grade the bike can do with is being recommended.

like wise these good for nothing dealers can use the same grade for their 100cc upto 150cc bikes. ZIMBLE hehe...


as per the shell oil here is the proof of the same. i recommended shell because it has very less or no duplicates in that grade. if you are willing to spend get the motul 300v synthetic oil.

and finally for the mechanic you have to do the homework and find one on your own i cant help you there, may be other pune bhpians may find you some help try pming them!
@rider , its says , the oil is for OLDER CARS ?

Last edited by black12rr : 10th March 2009 at 11:30.
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Old 10th March 2009, 16:13   #25
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I haven't tried ELF in Karizma, i tried that in the Bullet and it was good as any other mineral oil. I'm not aware of the Castrol recommended drain period of Power 1, i prefer to change oil at 5k mark. I checked oil level this morning, and i was happy to see that oil still has the golden yellow colour to it after close to 3000kms, level was also fine. Bike has done 7800kms till now.

As a side note: I after the 1st and 2nd free service i never got the bike serviced by the HH dealer, as i wasn't happy with the way bike performed after i got back. Logic: if it ain't broke never fix it Did all the routine maintenance myself. It will hurt the warranty for sure, probably making it void. But anytime better than illinformed "trainee" mechs fiddling around with my bike. And as a result i don't have any problems to report.
Dude, if the drain period is not mentioned on the can... or at least the fact that its an extended drain period oil, then you may be harming your engine by using it for 5,000 km!! Also, if the oil is looks like new after 3,000 km, then maybe the oil has poor detergency??

You said it... in milder words (about service centres). I'd say they rape it!! I'd seriously consider forgoing the warranty rather than giving it to them. But thats not desirable too... so trying to find a way...

As for the adage of not fixing whats not broken... while very right in most cases, there is something like preventive maintainence! So one should consider "dont neglect till it breaks" also!

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@rider , its says , the oil is for OLDER CARS ?
Yes... thats because its a thick oil. The trend is towards thinner oils... thicker oils may be benificial only in old cars; or cars with worn engines.

Last edited by Raccoon : 10th March 2009 at 16:17.
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Old 10th March 2009, 16:52   #26
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Dude, if the drain period is not mentioned on the can... or at least the fact that its an extended drain period oil, then you may be harming your engine by using it for 5,000 km!! Also, if the oil is looks like new after 3,000 km, then maybe the oil has poor detergency??

You said it... in milder words (about service centres). I'd say they rape it!! I'd seriously consider forgoing the warranty rather than giving it to them. But thats not desirable too... so trying to find a way...

As for the adage of not fixing whats not broken... while very right in most cases, there is something like preventive maintainence! So one should consider "dont neglect till it breaks" also!
If the normal oil is good for 6k kilometers then the semisynth Castrol Power1 should be as good for 6000kilometers if not better. Synthetics have longer drain intervals than mineral oil, semi synths should have some of that quality. The oil must be looking clean because of a healthy engine than lack of detergents

I trust Honda engine more than the skills or dedication of a dealer mechanic, thats why i have decided to forego the warranty And i don't neglect parts, i check them and i do preventive maintenance myself. Just that i don't do or get it done coz the manual says so.
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Old 10th March 2009, 17:33   #27
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^^^As I'v mentioned before, possibly in the oil thread, semi-synth could be nothing more than a marketing ploy. No company declares the synthetic component. If you look at it technically, every oil is semi-synth as all additives are synthetic!

Just consider the HH oils. They are supposed to be good for 6,000 km. Nowhere is it mentioned that they are semi-synthetic. The BPCL HH oil says its Hydro-cracked, but users say its the worst HH oil. Gulf oil for HH mentions that it is semi synthetic... but its supposed to have the same life.

Furthermore, fully synth oils do *not* have longer drain periods unless it is an extended drain oil (just like mineral oils). And do you seriously belive a company like Castrol, which seems to survive more on clever marketing rather than the quality of their products will not mention that their oil has a longer life?? I'd seriously suspect that it dosen't... thats why its not mentioned!!

Quote:
The oil must be looking clean because of a healthy engine than lack of detergents
Yes that could be true. But I guess the only way to establish that is to open the engine after significant use. Another, possibly lesser accurate way is to use some other good oil (after using the Castrol oil) and see if it comes out dirtier than usual...
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Old 10th March 2009, 17:41   #28
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OT : Ok , since we are talking about oils .Do we have a good engine flush for bikes ? , like OWS for cars ? any good brand/name for bikes ? .Any one aware or used them ?
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Old 10th March 2009, 18:34   #29
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Since i don't have any facility for oil research and since i'm not a chemical engineer qualified to assess oils at their molecular level, i'd take the manufacturers claim regarding whether an oil is Synthetic, Semisynthetic or plain old mineral based. Since Castrol is a manufacturer of repute i don't think they would risk their reputation by selling a mineral based oil as a semisynthetic.

HH oil is an oil made by different third party manufacturers and rebranded as HH oil. HH oil is for use with all of HH's models from the CD100 to Karizma. Which, i think, is shared across the model range probabaly due to economical and logistics reasons. A CD100 customer wouldn't be willing to pay more for a higher performing oil.

Originally the Karizma was specced for 20W40 oil and later HH changed it to 10W30 oil. That amuses me. 10W30 oil is cheaper if you compare it with a similar specced 40W oil. Again HH cost cutting? Or is it easier logistics? Probably HH is trying to get away with the least they can! This makes me think whether to really put HH oil into my Karizma since it's not a CD100, the engine temps are usually higher than a CD100s, operating RPM is higher than a CD100s. And especially since i ride the Karizma hard.

Anyways i'd rather choose an oil where it's manufacturer is ready to put it's name and reputation behind it rather than a third party company. If HH oil is bad it's bad name for Hero Honda and not BPCL or Idemitsu, and selling oils is not their prime business. If Castrol or Gulf oil is bad then it's bad for the original company.

Really for choosing the right oil for a Hunk/Xtreme refer to the Unicorn manual rather than the HH manual. The oil page of the Uni manual is lot better than the HH manual where they simply say use 10W30 oil, whether the user is in Rajasthan or Kashmir.

Well.. to determine the health of the engine it doesn't have to be opened It will be opened when it's not healthy. And 7800kms is not really the time to expect sludge buildup in a properly maintained engine.

When the bike is at the dealer's for servicing they don't usually use 900ml packs of oil. What they do is they will fill the 900ml bottles from a huge barrel kept at the spares dept and drain the 900ml from the bottle into the engine. Most of the time it's the mechs who themselves fill the bottle from the drum, sometimes the spare store guy would fill it. Whoever fills it who will make sure the quantity is right? And who will make sure the bottles are not contaminated with dirt or water? This is how oil changes are done at big service centers, and most small authorised service centers use 900ml HH packs. This is first hand info.
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Old 10th March 2009, 20:51   #30
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Many of these things I have mentioned elsewhere, but I'll repeat some...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Quote:
Since i don't have any facility for oil research and since i'm not a chemical engineer qualified to assess oils at their molecular level, i'd take the manufacturers claim regarding whether an oil is Synthetic, Semisynthetic or plain old mineral based. Since Castrol is a manufacturer of repute i don't think they would risk their reputation by selling a mineral based oil as a semisynthetic.
Its not about risking their reputation. They most probably would be technically and legally right by labelling its semi-synthetic! Its something like labelling severely hydroprocessed oil as fully synthetic. It is legally right, but technically wrong... at least in the US. Dunno about India. I wont be surprised if we dont have any law that covers this... to begin with. What I'm saying is that the consideration of the fact about the oil being labelled semi-synthetic or mineral shouldn't be given too much importance. There is too much more in the oil business than meets the eye.

Quote:
HH oil is an oil made by different third party manufacturers and rebranded as HH oil. HH oil is for use with all of HH's models from the CD100 to Karizma. Which, i think, is shared across the model range probabaly due to economical and logistics reasons. A CD100 customer wouldn't be willing to pay more for a higher performing oil.
Yes, by Idemitsu, Tide Water & BPCL.

Quote:
Originally the Karizma was specced for 20W40 oil and later HH changed it to 10W30 oil. That amuses me. 10W30 oil is cheaper if you compare it with a similar specced 40W oil. Again HH cost cutting? Or is it easier logistics? Probably HH is trying to get away with the least they can! This makes me think whether to really put HH oil into my Karizma since it's not a CD100, the engine temps are usually higher than a CD100s, operating RPM is higher than a CD100s. And especially since i ride the Karizma hard.
Yes, the change from 20W40 to 10W30 is strange... but we dont have a definite answer for it. But its quite possible that the current HH oil is formulated such that it meets the requirements for all its models. It dosen't seem like Karizma users who ride hard are suffering seizures or abnormal engine wear. At least I haven't heard... In fact the bikes are going quite smooth with it... at least with the Idemitsu oil. Of course the Gulf Pride of same viscosity seems to outperform it... but thats another issue.

And 10W30 cheaper than 20W40?? Are you sure? At least one eg. I can think of - the gulf 20W40 oil is slightly cheaper than the 10W30 oil! And both have similar specs, with same drain period... as far as I can remember. Is the Castrol Power 1 10W30 cheaper than its thicker counterpart?

Quote:
Anyways i'd rather choose an oil where it's manufacturer is ready to put it's name and reputation behind it rather than a third party company. If HH oil is bad it's bad name for Hero Honda and not BPCL or Idemitsu, and selling oils is not their prime business. If Castrol or Gulf oil is bad then it's bad for the original company.
Yes, thats right in way...

Quote:
Really for choosing the right oil for a Hunk/Xtreme refer to the Unicorn manual rather than the HH manual. The oil page of the Uni manual is lot better than the HH manual where they simply say use 10W30 oil, whether the user is in Rajasthan or Kashmir.
That may be right... but I'd still fill much more comfy by going with the CBZ manual.... because there are too many factors that I don't have answers for. And HH isnt intrested in clarifying anything. I believe the manufacturer knows his his product better.

Quote:
Well.. to determine the health of the engine it doesn't have to be opened It will be opened when it's not healthy. And 7800kms is not really the time to expect sludge buildup in a properly maintained engine.
Ideally, opening may reveal more... but of course I mayself would not be comfy about opening it just for this. In fact I woudn't be comfy about opening it at all... unless I do it myself... Lol!

Quote:
When the bike is at the dealer's for servicing they don't usually use 900ml packs of oil. What they do is they will fill the 900ml bottles from a huge barrel kept at the spares dept and drain the 900ml from the bottle into the engine. Most of the time it's the mechs who themselves fill the bottle from the drum, sometimes the spare store guy would fill it. Whoever fills it who will make sure the quantity is right? And who will make sure the bottles are not contaminated with dirt or water? This is how oil changes are done at big service centers, and most small authorised service centers use 900ml HH packs. This is first hand info.
Quite so. Everywhere there is a risk of contamination and adulteration. In fact at my dealer's service station I actually found them to be using BPCL MAK 20W40 oil. This is *not* the HH recommended oil. The API rating of this oil was also much lower than the required SJ. Also, who knows what actually is in the drum... for all I know it was something else filled in a BPCL drum.

When I asked another dealer, I was told they have no idea what oil is there in the drum. And they dont keep any sealed bottles.

And yet another dealer I went to had and used only sealed 900 ml HH oil bottles. This dealer has a smaller service centre.

And everywhere they make a big fuss if you bring your own oil.

The whole thing is a mess... The things I experienced and saw at my dealers service centre are the worst I'v seen/experienced at any service centre. HH service is %$#@#%!

Last edited by Raccoon : 10th March 2009 at 20:55.
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