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Old 10th September 2015, 16:29   #1921
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Default Re: Royal Enfield Queries

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Originally Posted by B O V View Post
Have you checked your ignition timing? Sounds a like its a bit retarded (timing), When does it miss?
Timing is set at around at 2 mm BTDC (company says it is around 0.4mm BTDC but couldn't get that close ). Battery terminals where a bit too corroded and my mechanic set the carb a bit too lean (dunno why he did that).

Air screw turned in a half a turn and after cleaning up the terminals there is no missing, backfiring or loss of power
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Old 10th September 2015, 19:10   #1922
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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I see no one paying 80$ an hour for regular maintenance here. People who pay 80$ an hour are the ones looking to make there Fi do what it wasn't programmed to from factory.
Trouble in this case (vs. the N. American labor rates referred to) is not routine maintenance or modified systems, it's the fact of frequent failures with RE's budget Keihin FI system as used on the CL500's, etc. Not $80 an hour for labor, but Rs12,000 fuel pumps going bad on <2 year old bikes (see below) is expensive in my book. My theory is that current Indian-market FI systems – which seem rather crude and rudimentary for lack of sensors - are fitted more with marketing and profit margins in mind, rather than operational superiority. That would be precisely why you're seeing them on premium mid-market variants, and not on lower-margin 100cc segment machines (which, tellingly, even with carbs manage the highest FE ratings, DO pass emission norms, and remain the cheapest to maintain models in the long run!).

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Altitude compensation is done by MAP sensor, not by O2 sensors. I am not sure if report about REs inability to adjust AFR for altitude is true or not but this kind of knowhow is very basic.
After your reply I had to check whether I was mistaken here (it's been a long time since I worked in the ECU/MAF departments), but I wasn't. If you doubts about this understanding of the 02 sensor's role in engine control, read this, which is very clear on this point: http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...Loop%20o2.html:

“Using the o2 sensor the ECU will modify its fuel table based on the readings the o2 sensor is seeing. This is important in maintaining a perfect A/F ratio as there are so many variables affecting the tune of a motor at any given time. For example, air temperature, altitude, humidity, and so on.[/i]

So the truth is that all the pre-programmed fuel/ignition curves in the ECU are only theoretically “correct”. All other sensors – MAP/MAF, TPS, temp, crank angle, etc, feed info into the ECU, and it compensates according to how much fuel/advance SHOULD (ideally) be required at a given manifold absolute pressure (MAP sensor), rpm (crank angle sensor), load (MAF/TPS), engine/ambient temp (temp sensor), etc. BUT the O2 sensor is the final arbiter, you could say, and different from all the other sensors in that it can sense how the combustion process is ACTUALLY going (not just how it SHOULD be going), and adjusting as needed AWAY FROM the pre-set “ideal” curves when necessary. It does this essentially by measuring / sending a rich/lean indication to the ECU. So it definitely does play a major role, along with the MAP/MAF and every other sensor feeding into the control unit, towards idealizing A/F ratio across a wide range of rpm's/loads/climates/levels of engine wear/etc. The O2 sensor IS a definitely an important one, but unfortunately it's expensive (Rs5,000+), so the FI systems on Indian bikes aren't using them (RE's export models do, incidentally).

So RE's domestic-market Keihin FI systems are basically running in “open loop” (without 02 sensor or its measurements / inputs), and therefore only adjusting fuel/timing according to a theoretical ideal (i.e., the preset curves), rather than according to what an engine might actually more precisely NEED at any given time. This is NOT the most effective way to run an ECU-controlled FI engine! Note that in the article link below, it's saying that an ECU can be set up to adjust to a maximum deviation from the curves - which could easily be 10-20%! That means that the ACTUAL ideal can often be pretty far from the theoretical ideal!

Anyway (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't know that RE's Keihin system has a MAP sensor, either, and probably not a cylinder head temp sensor, so it's really just got a TPS to estimate load, a crank angle sensor to know engine speed, and basic programmed fuel / timing curves telling how much of each to feed in. This is not really a lot of info for the ECU to go on - which is why it can't really get near ideal, and the 500CL (FI) was only giving 26-27kmpl locally here, where a bolt-on carb setup on the same bikes was giving 32-33.

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Now almost all bikes are Fi in India , except the 100cc segment or thereabouts.
This is really interesting news..!!! Granted, there ARE optional FI variants of a number of mid-upper segment offerings, but in truth it turned out to be no advantage (and some disadvantage) on the P220 and they went back to a carb; the Hero showroom itself is telling me the FI-Karizma's are a nightmare to service/repair, and I've personally known of at least three people (and I don't run much in RE crowds) who had their fuel pumps (suddenly, without warning) fail on CL500's no more than a couple years old, at something like Rs12,000 a pop. And the FI RE's frequently were misbehaving at high altitude. Thus, as of last year, RE started using a fuel injector that had a little external adjustment screw on it, allowing it to be calibrated for various altitudes; Theoretically each dealership was supposed to have the equipment to measure/perform this correction, but doubtful whether they all do, and not likely that this is something that could be performed by the owner en route, which is actually when you'd like to be able to do it sometimes (Manali-Leh, where altitude variations along the way exceed 10,000ft!) and on a carb, easily COULD do it.

Granted, a carb will need to be adjusted at altitude to run at its best, too - but the point, getting back to the Himalayan, is:

What's the advantage of FI if it's 1) not compensating any more than a carb would for varying conditions; 2) is not serviceable by a majority of small, non-factory-trained roadside mechanics one may encounter on long tours in out-of-the-way places; 3) in practice is actually giving lower FE numbers than the same bike converted to carb; 4) is not any more reliable (in fact less in practice) than a carb; 5) has MUCH higher replacement costs for components (conventional fuel system is really only a carb, at maybe Rs6,000-7,000, whereas the Keihin FI has a pump, injector, and ECU, totaling 25,000 or more)??? 6) even factory carb'd versions of the same engines (P220/RE500std) are meeting emission norms...??? So I'm going to pay this much more up front and assume this much liability for what? Not having to use a choke in the morning? (incidentally, last time I was in Spiti, a guy on a FI'd RE Desert Storm had been having a terrible time starting it every morning that week, whereas his companion on a carb'd AVL TB had no issues). Budget FI systems are NOT desirable or in any way worth it in my book. Mere marketing hype.

Long story short, I'm hoping the Himalayan will be brought to market as a simple, robust, affordable, and easy to self-service carbureted bike, and if it's not, and the FI system has not been significantly upgraded from earlier RE's, and I ever do own one, I'll probably be putting a carb on it.

-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 10th September 2015 at 19:19.
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Old 10th September 2015, 19:58   #1923
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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Now if a sensor already has range and capability to provide meaningful input to ECU , why would someone want to put a cap on it by calibrating it for just 5500mtrs of altitude.
Matter of philosophy. Compromise between type 1 and type 2 errors.

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Old 10th September 2015, 20:03   #1924
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Matter of philosophy. Compromise between type 1 and type 2 errors.

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Sutripta
Why would there be any error? If you don't put a cap on it
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Old 10th September 2015, 23:58   #1925
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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Old 11th September 2015, 02:39   #1926
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Default Re: Royal Enfield Queries

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There is hardly any carbon deposits from the UCE engine, so don't expect the note to change.
But the stock silencer has collected ample amount of carbon deposit ?
Did you mean the silencer modification effort has gone kaput ?
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Old 11th September 2015, 03:13   #1927
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

Just to clarify my comments above:

I said the computer and sensors are designed to operate " over 18,000 feet...". I did not limit it to that elevation.

The UCE Royal Enfields fuel injection system was intentionally designed to operate at any elevation encountered in the Himalayas.

Those who want to explore Youtube will be able to find more than one where a group of French girls rode their fuel injected, UCE powered Royal Enfields over the mountains without any motorcycle problems (except for dropping the bike a few times).



There are other videos on Youtube that complete this adventure.

Last edited by ArizonaJim : 11th September 2015 at 03:36.
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Old 11th September 2015, 10:49   #1928
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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You transport a motorcycle from dead sea to Himalayan base camp ( some 40kpa is it?) , nearly 1/3 of what ECU remember it had last time and your ECU waiting for O2 sensors feesback about altitude.

Mate,

I respect your knowledge and gyan you have shared on this thread regarding the FI Vs Carb and their settings.

But tell how many times in a week do you transport a motorcycle from dead sea to Himalayan base camp to make the product versatile?

I care zilch for all these thoughts. If the bike works it works, else I will move on to a different bike. Not the end of the day.

Screw It Let's Ride

Last edited by ku69rd : 11th September 2015 at 10:51.
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Old 11th September 2015, 11:03   #1929
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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Mate,

I respect your knowledge and gyan you have shared on this thread regarding the FI Vs Carb and their settings.

But tell how many times in a week do you transport a motorcycle from dead sea to Himalayan base camp to make the product versatile?

I care zilch for all these thoughts. If the bike works it works, else I will move on to a different bike. Not the end of the day.

Screw It Let's Ride
Well I can transport 7 times a week if you wanna fund the experiment.
Anyway it was just to make it easier to understand for the people who are willing to understand .
We can simplify the situation by changing dead sea to chennai and base camp to some place in siachin or something. Imagin a fauji getting transferred.

Now tell me would you as a manufacturer would want your vehicle to start and do it's thing or wait for lambda values?

It that was the case no vehicle having Fi without an o2 sensor ( lots of bikes and cars + crdi diesels vehicles)
Would work correctly if taken from one altitude to other in ign off condition
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Old 11th September 2015, 11:33   #1930
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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We can simplify the situation by changing dead sea to chennai

Would work correctly if taken from one altitude to other in ign off condition

Mate,

Apologies, It did not simplify things to me. I was just being practical with my thoughts. Why would anyone want to fund that exercise? With all those funding, would the bike's cost not go beyond the reach of masses?

Regarding your FI without O2 Sensors, Yes RE should have fitted them to give a much better/evolved product rather than doing mere lip service by providing FI.

I have scaled my TB UCE 500 to Gurudongmar Lake and never experienced anything. No loss of power or starting issues. All that was suffered was a clutch cable that snapped.

But I would agree to your thought process of RE not fitting the O2 Sensors.
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Old 11th September 2015, 11:37   #1931
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

@ dustom_99,

A little unnecessarily rude/dismissive there. Sorry to be excessively "wordy" and I never meant to suggest that the MAP operating as you suggest wasn't valid. And there are a lot of other resources one could look into that would affirm the additional importance of the 02 sensor's role in closed-loop mode (not speaking of cold starting, nor of WOT, where typically we shift to open-loop). I don't have all day to frame arguments, so cited only the first one I came across. No digging, I promise.

When I spoke of RE FI's not running well at high altitude - (besides proving comparatively unreliable and expensive to repair), as confirmed not only by the Manali RE ASC, the tour operators up here running towards Ladakh, and also by RE themselves, in that they were forced more recently to upgrade to an adjustable injector - I wasn't referring primarily to startup conditions, but of misfiring in continuous running over the passes, etc.

And I still maintain that without actual measurement of exhaust gases (via the O2, obviously once warmed up), the ECU still can only take a MAP/TPS/Temp input and ASSUME that a particular pre-programmed fuel curve is going to be "right" for conditions. The point is that what's "theoretically" right isn't always actually right in practice; hence the O2's role in adjusting OUTSIDE / AWAY from the theoretical ideal when necessary.

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Yes, the Lambda (O2) sensor is on the export Royal Enfields only to meet the emissions requirements in the USA, England and Europe. The fuel injection maps for the RE in India are designed to maximize fuel economy while still providing performance equal to or better than a carburetor can provide. For those who aren't familiar with RE fuel injection, the computer uses manifold pressure, throttle position, engine temperature and engine speed to determine the best air/fuel mixture ratio and ignition timing several times per second.
I will fully confess and apologize for my former ignorance of the details of RE's system, not realizing the extent of the sensors provided. But whatever it was designed to do, it wasn't doing it well. As mentioned, actual FE numbers for the FI's were lower up here than identical carb'ed bikes, and they were exhibiting as much misfiring on the heights as the (unadjusted) carb'ed bikes, too.

BUT if as you say the O2 is effective in reducing emissions (i.e., export RE's), presumably by idealizing A/F ratios and ultimately combustion efficiency, then please explain why it would also not be effective towards maximizing power and FE, by nature of the same function - adjusting fuel ratios towards more ideal ACTUAL (not theoretical) combustion.

So re: the Himalayan, the Question remains: What's would be the advantage of low-cost FI system which seems either handicapped or under-developed, vs. a good carburetor? Especially when increased maintenance / replacement costs and the remoteness of intended destinations are taken into consideration? Why, I might add, were people clamoring for a carb-version RE500 (long waiting lists to get one), if the CL's FI was clearly superior, and why did Bajaj (arguably the most heavily invested domestic in terms of R&D), give up on FI for the P220 and go back to a carb, for what was their premium offering?

Not saying FI can't work, and work better than a carb. Just saying that it's not an easy thing to get set up perfectly, and when you're trying to do it on the cheap, it isn't likely to work as it should, or be as durable as it should.

Might add that the local complaint about the Duke200 (FI) is that it doesn't want to start in the cold (and I mean Manali cold). Whereas carb'ed bikes are not really problematic up here. Seems the domestic manufacturers are aiming (as always) for the mass-market and its typical conditions/climates/altitudes, whatever. Thing is that the Himalayan is supposed to be more of an adventure tourer - as such it needs to be more flexible.

-Eric

Last edited by GTO : 16th September 2015 at 13:14. Reason: Quoted post has been deleted
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Old 11th September 2015, 19:02   #1932
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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A.

And I still maintain that without actual measurement of exhaust gases (via the O2, obviously once warmed up), the ECU still can only take a MAP/TPS/Temp input and ASSUME that a particular pre-programmed fuel curve is going to be "right"
[b]BUT if as you say the O2 is effective in reducing emissions (i.e., export RE's), presumably by idealizing A/F ratios and ultimately combustion efficiency, then please explain why it would also not be effective towards maximizing power and FE, by nature of the same function - adjusting fuel ratios towards more ideal ACTUAL (not theoretical) combustion
-Eric
Well there was never an argument from my side For close loop and open loop , and how lambda corrects AFR.
I just wanted to let you know that altitude correction is primarily MAP sensors job.
O2 sensor corrects the AFR ( for whatever reason they might be away from intended values)
But if AFR is was off due to some reason - like sudden change in barometer , Stock narrow band O2 can't do.much about it.

Now coming to.power- if burning fuel at most efficient AFR (14.64) was the only factor important for power , all manufacturer would be pretty much at same level of bhp/cc chart. Because even 1st year student knows about 1:14.64.

I am sure if you shout it out loud , you can find lot if people here on forum itself who would say they had no trouble with there engines in leh or other high altitude places along with near sea level places. And then ask them if there bike has an o2 sensor.
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Old 11th September 2015, 20:54   #1933
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

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Why would there be any error? If you don't put a cap on it
Let me rephrase as a question.
Suppose there is no 'cap'. And you (=ECU) gets a signal from the MAP sensor which translates to 'I am at 20,000 ft'. What do you do?

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Old 11th September 2015, 21:10   #1934
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Let me rephrase as a question.
Suppose there is no 'cap'. And you (=ECU) gets a signal from the MAP sensor which translates to 'I am at 20,000 ft'. What do you do?

Regards
Sutripta
I the ECU! Wow I am almost loving it!

I get a signal that I am at 20k , I look up at kpa table corresponding to it and if it falls out of my kpa table I look Fir next nearest kpa! Provide AFR and spark and what ever is needed to do my job.
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Old 11th September 2015, 21:19   #1935
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Default Re: Royal Enfield trademarks the name "Himalayan"

^^^
And there is the difference in philosophy: Someone else might say '20,000 ft! That reading cannot be right. Discard it', and go to an alternate mode of operation.

If one has got enough processing power, it is good practice to see that all input reading pass a 'sanity test'.

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