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Old 15th April 2009, 21:15   #61
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Hello again.

I stand corrected - the ZB 22 is one of those with the horizontally parted engine, two-speed only. I finally found a picture (i never seen one of those beasts live, only had a set of side panels once and used them to fix up a ZR 10).

Kind regards....

Thanh
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Old 15th April 2009, 21:22   #62
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Man, I never imagined the Germans of all people would ride mopeds! They are after all makers of the fastest, nicest and more expensive cars and motorbikes. But I guess if the Italians can make Ferraris and Vespas, the Germans can make mopeds also

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Old 15th April 2009, 22:07   #63
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Hi

My friend, you might be interested to know that the Germans not only invented the Moped - they even invented the name "Moped" That was because, after the war, they were at first restricted in making motorcycles no larger than 50cc..... that restriction lasted only a very short time, but during that time the new vehicles became very popular. A name was looked for, and it was agreed upon "Moped" for "MOtor velociPED", i.e. motorized bicycle in French language. Later the term was used for MOtor PEDals", once bikes with kick start were available (which were then called Mokick).

In Germany once existed a very large number of makers of mopeds, of which Zundapp, Kreidler and Hercules were only the largest. Many many MANY brands built own frames and used slot-in engines such as Zundapp's immensely popular CombiMot (on which Zundapp's first actual moped, the Combinette, was based) or a whole range of Sachs engines. You can even find mopeds from firms like Miele - otherwise known for washing machines! Only due to the HUGE popularity of these vehicles in Germany they began sweeping whole Europe, with non-German manufacturers producing for the German market first, then starting to sell in their own country too.

The concept went around the world, as did the German-made mopeds - they rode Zundapp in Australia and the U.S.A., for example, and manufacturers there followed suit - and finally the moped that truly mobilized Asia was born and managed to outlive them all, Honda's legendary Super Cub which was first made in 1958 and ist still being made today, virtually unchanged, over 60 million of them already!

In Germany, where it all began, meanwhile the manufacturers were in an "arms race" - faster, faster, faster, so much that the authorities had to start restricting - new classes were born, then the "moped" suddenly was only allowed to go 40 km/h and everything else was a different class now requiring a driving license, and even later another new class, even slower, was born for the yougsters - the Mofa.

And as the original ones became too fast (as mentioned in the late 70's an open 50cc easily exceeded 100 km/h, some exceeded 120 km/h) the class was scrapped altogether in favour of a new class with more power but a strict speed limit to 80 km/h. And ever since the popularity has declined, as the fun was well and truly out. Foreign manufacturers, particularly the Japanese, overran the market with their cheap products, and one by one the traditional German manufacturers faltered.... Zundapp being the last of the big ones, while Hercules managed to struggle on because they also made bicycles. Hercules in a sense does still exist - they have been bought up by their previous engine supplier Sachs, which is now the company's name.

In these days, Germans ride mopeds more than ever - because of the insane petrol prices in that country (where 85% of the petrol price is tax!) many simply can't afford to use a car, hence 50cc's are popular to whizz around in citys, nowadays these are mainly Taiwanese scooters ("rolling toilets" as they are called) that are cheaply sold in supermarkets and the like, they are easy to ride and a car driving license still allows to ride them at a speed no higher than 45 km/h.

Germany may produce some of the best and/or fastest cars in the world, but Germany will probably also be the first country where nobody can afford to use one any longer as the taxes keep going skyward... one of the reasons for me to say "good bye" to that country and vow never to return.

Kind regards.....

Thanh
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Old 16th April 2009, 09:09   #64
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Guys: I once owned a Fury- IIRC was one of the first in Bangalore to take delivery of it (Madras Motors, J.C. Road). In them days it cost my Dad the princely sum of Rs 17,500. Mine was the DX version with mag wheels, but lacked the rev counter the later model came fitted with.

She was fast, smooth-as-a-turbine at cruising speeds (due to the rubber mounted engine), but like someone pointed out had a lot of gremlins as std.: for instance, the gear shift movement was long and awkward. I enjoyed the machine with many long rides, wheelies down Brigade Road etc, but when she started going sour, she did it in style. The front brake rotor warped and I had a heated debate with their visiting Vice President who insisted it wasn't. When it was dismounted and tested for tolerances on a glass sheet, he gave in demurely and fitted on a brand new disc, gratis.
Next hiccup was a gudgeon pin circlip that came loose (broke actually) at speed causing the pin to grind into the cylinder- and hence the engine to sieze. When I pointed out it was no fault of mine, the Company bore 50% of the costs of replacing all parts. Most of my troubles were post-warranty- conveniently- but I used every trick from coercion to threat to get my way. Over a period of perhaps 2 years, I must have got total FREE parts from Enfield to the tune of Rs 8500- HALF the value of the machine.

Pity, coz it was a promising bike. The original version tested for India was water-cooled and was ridden by a Parsi friend of mine- sadly it was too expensive for manufacture and they dropped the idea.

BTW twas not the first 5-speed bike to be sold in India. The Saund (Zweirad) predated it by 10-12 years. My dad owned one.

Other pain points:
# the seat base broke in half (replaced with one from a Yezdi)
# the lighting was inadequate (workaround: underrated bulb that delivered brilliant illumination by being overstressed. However, slip a gear and over-rev the engine and she would fuse)
# silencer that liked to break lose of its brackets
# ignition coil failure


Good memories, though. After I moved on to a Hero Puch, dad used her for a while after bringing her back to spec (and order)- you know the old school, but she proved too much for him and we sold the bike.

Last edited by netchef : 16th April 2009 at 09:12. Reason: spello
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Old 21st April 2009, 19:30   #65
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Originally Posted by netchef View Post
Guys: .

BTW twas not the first 5-speed bike to be sold in India. The Saund (Zweirad) predated it by 10-12 years. My dad owned one
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...irca-78-a.html (Anyone owned/rode a Saund (Zweirad) circa '78)

Netchef, just go through the above link & confirm the bike,
the bike (mine) which you see in this thread ( you were the thread starter)
but this one is a 3 speed one ( type v2 - Victoria engine)
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Old 21st April 2009, 21:29   #66
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Hi

How come the Saunad is called "Zweirad", which is German (!) for "two-wheeler"..? Seems German is a popular language in India..?

And also, how come the Saunad looks like a very close copy of German Hercules-Models of that same area? See picture of K50 Sprint, specially the tank - i'd bet that the tank from the Saunad is 100% compatible. Hercules used Sachs engines at that time but previously also had used Victoria engines! I owned a Hercules K50 RL with front swing arm (see second picture, mine was exactly like that, same colour too) which as the same tank but a stronger engine (5-speed, 6.25 horse power, some 100 km/h). Hercules's mopeds were known as MK1, MK2, MK4, Supra 4 and Supra 4 GP, all looking more-or-less identical and pretty much like the here mentioned Saunad.

Kind regards.

Thanh
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Old 22nd April 2009, 08:51   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertwin View Post
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...irca-78-a.html (Anyone owned/rode a Saund (Zweirad) circa '78)

Netchef, just go through the above link & confirm the bike,
the bike (mine) which you see in this thread ( you were the thread starter)
but this one is a 3 speed one ( type v2 - Victoria engine)
powertwin: Sir, connected there with my two cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanh-BKK View Post
Hi

How come the Saunad is called "Zweirad", which is German (!) for "two-wheeler"..? Seems German is a popular language in India..?

And also, how come the Saunad looks like a very close copy of German Hercules-Models of that same area? See picture of K50 Sprint, specially the tank - i'd bet that the tank from the Saunad is 100% compatible. Hercules used Sachs engines at that time but previously also had used Victoria engines! I owned a Hercules K50 RL with front swing arm (see second picture, mine was exactly like that, same colour too) which as the same tank but a stronger engine (5-speed, 6.25 horse power, some 100 km/h). Hercules's mopeds were known as MK1, MK2, MK4, Supra 4 and Supra 4 GP, all looking more-or-less identical and pretty much like the here mentioned Saunad.

Kind regards.

Thanh
Thanh-BKK: Sir, the Saund was manufactured under Licence -or perhaps the rights were bought outright- from ZWEIRAD of Germany AROUND 1977. I know that for a fact. But it wasn't manufactured or marketed professionally and suffered early failure both in sales and the performance of the machine. The bike quickly died a natural death. Not many were sold: to do it justice, it was also an idea before its time and the Indian biking fraternity were not quite open to the idea of a hi-revving machine that sounded like an angry hornet and required frequent gear changes to keep her in the power band.

Yes, you're right. There is a strong resemblance to the machines you've pictured.
But not the one with yellow tank- the Saund had double downtubes in the frame; not the blue one entirely as the Saund had a telescopic fork...maybe some mix of both.
I was young and have only vague recollection of what the sum and substance of the Saund amounted to visually. But yes, she was 100cc and did have a 5-speed gearbox.

ANYONE WITH PICS OF A SAUND??

Last edited by netchef : 22nd April 2009 at 08:57. Reason: point to add
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Old 22nd April 2009, 10:17   #68
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Hi

Sorry for mis-spelling the na,me - it's Saund, yes? Or Saunad? Anyway, i found why they have such a strong resemblance to the Hercules ones:

History
Zweirad-Union was an amalgamation of the DKW, Express and Victoria marques, based at the Victoria Works in Nuremburg. It was joined by Hercules in 1966, and soon afterwards the company was absorbed into the Fichel & Sachs group.

(Zweirad-Union Motorrad)

Regarding the missing down tubes on the Hercules K50 Sprint - Hercules was the main competitor to Zundapp (Kreidler were pretty much their own league) and so came that Hercules models always featured same or near-same details as Zundapp's. Only that Hercules always stayed two steps behind - making their mopes look outdated against equivalent Zundapp ones. The MK1/MK2 were the competitor to Zundapp's Combinette/C50 Sport (3-speed) while the Supra were competitor to Zundapp's GTS 50 (4-Speed). The K50 models were competitors to Zundapp's KS 50 ones - open 50cc, 5-speed. The Hercules K50 Sprint was a "cheap" model to compete with Zundapp's (very rare!) KS 50 Sport (529 type) which, just like the Hercules, came without the down tubes and front drum brake and also without indicators and with a standard ignition point/contact system (instead of the electronic/CDI ones the more expensive models featured, Zundapp as well as Hercules).

Those down tubes can, however, be fitted by the owner - the frames are identical and threaded holes are available to fit them, all that's required is the two tubes and 4 bolts M8x15

And regarding the front telescopic fork, Hercules stuck with the pushed swing arm on their open 50cc's right until the introduction of the "Ultra" series (which was to become Germany's, if not the world's, strongest 50cc street bikes - the fully faired Ultra III LC coming with massive 9.6 horse power and speed approaching 140 km/h, dual front disc brake was standard for Ultra II and Ultra III!) and this pushed swing arm had one distinct advantage: It worked as an anti-dive-system as in when you use the front brake, the bike's front would not dive but RAISE a little bit. This is VERY good to ride and allows perfect control.

However this sytem has also one distinct disadvantage - it's HEAVY. As a previous owner of a K50 RL i can state that - there's a reason why these Hercules were always slower than Zundapp's despite having the exact same power available (and the Sachs engines were a bit on the long-stroke side, too, however the torque advantage which that should bring wasn't there either, Zundapp's had better pull as well).

Kind regards.

Thanh
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Old 22nd April 2009, 19:15   #69
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Hi

Got these pictures from the Zundapp forum - i just wanted to show them to you guys, maybe you have never seen this model before.

The Zundapp Madras CS 25 (Enfield Sprinter, smaller brother of Explorer).

This is basically the Explorer, but single seat, 3-speed hand shifted, 50cc, 1.5 horse power, 25 km/h (Mofa). It is 100% equivalent to Zundapp CS 25 and was exported from India to Germany (i believe only Germany). I sold those when i was still working in the Zundapp shop

With kind regards.....

Thanh
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Old 22nd April 2009, 21:24   #70
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Default Vicky 2 or S-Z ???

@ Thanh-Bkk;
Please find the pics of my 50cc bike, with Victoria engine.
The chassis name plate has the following script:
Saund - Zweirad union.
manufactered by : Auto Union Industries(p) ltd
Gwalior.
year : 1981
type : V2

ps:Just compare the fuel tank & the power train ( victoria) 3 speed,hand shift type
As rightly told by Netchef, the bike, built quality was very poor ,so it had its natural death!!!
Any similar machine from your memory .....???,plz do post pics

pps:Plz do not take things like fenders, seat ,etc in to account ( for comparision)
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Old 23rd April 2009, 19:49   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netchef View Post
powertwin: Sir, connected there with my two cents.



Thanh-BKK: Sir, the Saund was manufactured under Licence -or perhaps the rights were bought outright- from ZWEIRAD of Germany AROUND 1977. I know that for a fact. But it wasn't manufactured or marketed professionally and suffered early failure both in sales and the performance of the machine. The bike quickly died a natural death. Not many were sold: to do it justice, it was also an idea before its time and the Indian biking fraternity were not quite open to the idea of a hi-revving machine that sounded like an angry hornet and required frequent gear changes to keep her in the power band.

Yes, you're right. There is a strong resemblance to the machines you've pictured.
But not the one with yellow tank- the Saund had double downtubes in the frame; not the blue one entirely as the Saund had a telescopic fork...maybe some mix of both.
I was young and have only vague recollection of what the sum and substance of the Saund amounted to visually. But yes, she was 100cc and did have a 5-speed gearbox.

ANYONE WITH PICS OF A SAUND??
Netchef Sir,
Please find the guzzete plate & foot rest rubbers of my bike ( Vicky 2 ,as told by you) of my 50cc bike.
Let ask our Thanh bro, if he has insight on this bike from his country's forum
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Old 24th April 2009, 09:04   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertwin View Post
@ Thanh-Bkk;
Please find the pics of my 50cc bike, with Victoria engine.
The chassis name plate has the following script:
Saund - Zweirad union.
manufactered by : Auto Union Industries(p) ltd
Gwalior.
year : 1981
type : V2
ps:Just compare the fuel tank & the power train ( victoria) 3 speed,hand shift type
As rightly told by Netchef, the bike, built quality was very poor ,so it had its natural death!!!
Any similar machine from your memory .....???,plz do post pics

pps:Plz do not take things like fenders, seat ,etc in to account ( for comparision)
powertwin: Sir, in that case, my deduction would be that it IS a Saund chassis and possibly other parts such as fork, tank etc, but the engine is definitely a Vicky engine.


The 'Saund' memory is too antedeluvian for me to recognize the shape of the tank and side panels- to give you a proper fix on the machine's antecedents, but the Saund engine did resemble one of those in the pics submitted by the other gentleman ...yellow tanked bike. I don't think it had radial fins on the head, so it's possibly the other engine with more standard horizontal +straight up fins for barrel/head instead of the 'mohawk' variety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertwin View Post
Netchef Sir,
Please find the guzzete plate & foot rest rubbers of my bike ( Vicky 2 ,as told by you) of my 50cc bike.
Let ask our Thanh bro, if he has insight on this bike from his country's forum
powertwin: Them bits are definitely Saund. Monsieur Thanh may be able to shed some light.
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Old 24th April 2009, 09:50   #73
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Originally Posted by aruncheloor View Post
Congrats on your purchase but its gonna be a hard task.. coz no spares are available. nowhere. especially engine, gearbox components. not even oil seals are available
Quote:
Originally Posted by siddartha View Post
thanx a lot guys , i hope i havent got myself something that's gonna take its toll on me trying to restore it .

are any parts available in chennai , anything at all ? who to ask ? need a contact there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siddartha View Post
i still dont know what parts i will need , but since its a running bike , i guess i can make do with the mechanicals as they are for sometime atleast, until something breaks.

keep the posts coming everybody ,this is one of the least discussed bike .

Guys, I know few places in chennai where it is worth trying to look for Zundapp Fury parts.

I can help you getting few of the part if not all, but You need to give me list of parts and its pictures. So i can compare the pictures with available parts on the shops I know. Big problem now is that they shop keepers themself not really aware of what part is for Enfield Explorer, Silver plus or Fury bikes.

There are couple of silverplus used parts including the alloy wheels I have spotted in the scrap vendor who supply stuffs to me.

Now its your call to decide what you want and how many pictures you can send to me for the required picture. The easy way to open up and findout what you want and take picture of it (detailed) and send it across. PM me for my email.
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Old 28th April 2009, 14:09   #74
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hey everybody , puttin up a pic of some of the parts that i need for the engine rebuild. hey trammway thanks a lot for offering the help , please have a look these parts.

part no 1 : engine/ crankshaft bearings.
part no. 2 : gear selector shaft.
part no.3 : kicker shaft
part no 4 : gear "push " rod.
part no 5 : first gear cog
part no 6&7 : engine mounting rubbers/beddings.

other than these i need the following :
1 set of rings
2 gudegeon pin
3 packing kit
4 oil seals
5 carb inlet manifold.
6 front brake master and wheel cylinder kits
7 set of all cables
8 set of indicators
9 gear palls and spring.
10 "dx" model side panels and rear mudguard.
11 brake pads

i know this is a huge list of mostly non existant parts . i will be happy find atleast some of the above parts with everybody's help. what i dont find i will make do with what ever i already have.
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Old 28th April 2009, 15:10   #75
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Hi

I have not received notification of replies until today, therefor i could not reply earlier.

Yeah, the Saund definitely looks like a close brother to the Hercules K... series respective MK series "Mokicks". Except for that engine - Hercules almost always used Sachs engines, only very old ones (much older than these series) used Victoria or even Zundapp (Combimot) engines.

The brand "Saund" as such is unheard of in Germany, however Zweirad Union is well known - after all it is what Hercules belonged to (basically the motorbike sister of Auto Union which combined a number of once-independent brands such as DKW and Horch, noways this is worldwide known as "Audi"). There are a number of non-Hercules-bits in a Saund judging by the picture, so my guess is that they simply took the frame and tank and modified it to create a new bike specifically for India, using Victoria-branded engines (Victoria itself was long out of manufacturing by this time the Saund was made, i believe i can spot a "1981" there) under Zweirad Union's branding scheme. There is nothing wrong with that - after all it's been done with Zundapp, too - as there are not one but TWO brands from Portugal who made Zundapp engines under license and created their own bikes around them of which some look strikingly similar to certain Zundapp models - comparable with this Saund-Hercules resemblance. The two Portuguese, if anyone is interested to know, are Famel-Zundapp and Casal-Zundapp.

Regarding the Fury parts that are needed, please let me know what you are willing to "invest" - that is always the point as i am 100% sure all of the required parts (by "all" i mean "all"!) can be found in Germany, however they will have their price tags. Brake pads are easily obtained via E-Bay Germany, same for the bearings, indicators etc. What will become difficult is intake manifold, brake caliper and master cylinder and the internal engine parts.

In case it helps - look for a complete KS 125 engine, they are widely available and, apart from the crank shaft/con rod, identical to Fury's. However top-condition engines (basically in factory-new condition) of that type can yield in excess of 1,000 Euros. I dare say the intake manifold of the (air cooled!) KS 125 will be identical to Fury's while German KS 175 are water cooled and hence likely different.

Here's a shaft/oil seal set: http://cgi.ebay.de/Zuendapp-KS-125-175-Simmerringsatz-4teilig-100-05-106NEU_W0QQitemZ110357811823QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMot orrad_Kraftradteile?hash=item110357811823&_trksid= p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229|66%3A2|65%3A12|39 %3A1|240%3A1318

A gear spring: http://cgi.ebay.de/Drehfeder-fuer-Kickstarter-Fussschaltung-ZUNDAPP-KS-125_W0QQitemZ260389340999QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorr ad_Kraftradteile?hash=item260389340999&_trksid=p32 86.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A 1|240%3A1318

One set of indicators: http://cgi.ebay.de/4-Stueck-Zuendapp-CS-50-KS-50-80-Blinker-530-16-768-12-V_W0QQitemZ230287750573QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorrad _Kraftradteile?hash=item230287750573&_trksid=p3286 .c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1229|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1| 240%3A1318

I recommend you to sign up for the forum at Die Zündapp-Community, it is all in German but many people there are able to converse in English so you will be able to find the required parts easier... there are many people selling parts.

I hope this was of help....

Kind regards.....

Thanh
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