Bullet 350 Std VS Electra 5S

[bj96]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Another angle on why the right foot gear shifters are a good idea - not too many people will ask to ride your bike on a casual basis...

+1.

However, for left shifters,ask the casual borrower to kick start in one go. If he can't start, he can't ride, etc.

9/10 will fail this test as they are used to generous twisting of throttle while starting.

1/10 will bounce the challenge back to you. Just impress him with your bullet skills

This test has worked for me on my e5s.

-BJ

[Sawyer]

@BJ - the thing is that for right shifters, they do not ask you in the first place, so there is no strain on the friendship! Of course, for many such as I, it is also the reason for not buying it - I had two bikes, and while I could have learnt to ride one with the right shift, I was not sure I could cope with switching back and forth.

[ron_9191]

Hi Desideep. I have a question on what you mean by "Point replacement Kit. that is being made by Autoescorts Bombay." What is this thing? Is it similar to the TCI that comes in the Electra 4S and 5S?? If it is not, can we advance and retard the timing using the point replacement kit??

[Beast_of_Burden]

Though I will revive this thread instead of starting a new similar one. I am in the market for a used 500 CI, but it is hard to come by. As a result, also evaluating Electra 5s vs. 4s.

I am looking for some inputs from experienced riders about the Electra(just in case a 500 does not materialize fairly soon).

1. The front shocks on the Electra look slightly different from the standard, are these an improvement over the standard?

2. Does the Electra come with 18" wheels? If the rear wheel is now 18", did RE compensate by changing the size of the sprocket or changing the gearbox?

3. The 5s has a 5th gear, does this make highway cruising relaxed compared to the STD/4s? In other words, is the 5th taller on the 5s compared to the STD/4s's 4th?

4. Is the quality of the gear shift on the 5s any way better than the 4s or is it worse? Personally, the neutral finder is the redeeming feature of the 4s's gearbox, I am somewhat inclined toward the 4s.


The RE showroom here in Hyderabad isnt offering test rides and I dont know anyone here who owns a 5s. I have been told that a 4s is still available for ordering. I dont care about the electric start, but consider the disc brake and electronic ignition vital improvements, so the STD 350 is not in contention.

[Born 2 Be Wild]

I own a Electra 4s with disk brake and have posted my reolies In Bold.
Hope it helps..

Originally Posted by Beast_of_Burden

1. The front shocks on the Electra look slightly different from the standard, are these an improvement over the standard? Yes The shocks are different And are definately an improvement over the Standard and the rear shocks are Gas filled

2. Does the Electra come with 18" wheels? If the rear wheel is now 18", did RE compensate by changing the size of the sprocket or changing the gearbox? The Electra Comes with 19 Inch Wheels in the front as well as the Back

3. The 5s has a 5th gear, does this make highway cruising relaxed compared to the STD/4s? In other words, is the 5th taller on the 5s compared to the STD/4s's 4th? I have riden my friends 5s and compared to my Electra 4s i have not felt any major difference in Highway cruising.

4. Is the quality of the gear shift on the 5s any way better than the 4s or is it worse? Personally, the neutral finder is the redeeming feature of the 4s's gearbox, I am somewhat inclined toward the 4s. The neutral finder is worth its weight in gold as far as i am concerned And the gearshift is not all that different.

[Beast_of_Burden]

Great inputs, thanks. The 4s is a better choice if the final ratio is the same, especially for someone who has ridden either the std 350 or the 500 CI only.

However, Electra 5s's are relatively plentiful on the used bike market compared to the 4s. As a result of the generous supply, a very good 5s can be had for 65k which is excellent value IMO. I can live with left side gear shift and lack of neutral finder( have gotten used to riding an interim P180 which has a lousy gearbox for a modern bike) if all else is the same for all practical purposes.

[bj96]

Originally Posted by Beast_of_Burden

3. The 5s has a 5th gear, does this make highway cruising relaxed compared to the STD/4s? In other words, is the 5th taller on the 5s compared to the STD/4s's 4th?

4. Is the quality of the gear shift on the 5s any way better than the 4s or is it worse

The final drive ratio is same (1:1) in both 5s and 4s. Hence, top gear cruising should not be different. However, the gears in 5s are closer spaced, hence city riding would be slightly better on 5s. The 4s gear box is prone to leak (grease + oil). My 5s gearbox hasn't leaked in 3.5 years- it uses (more modern) EP90 gear box lubrication. However, if you can find a new 4s- go for it for its pure bullet experience . Engine and ride wise there won't be any difference between a 5s and 4s.

-BJ

[Randhawa]

Originally Posted by Beast_of_Burden

Great inputs, thanks. The 4s is a better choice if the final ratio is the same, especially for someone who has ridden either the std 350 or the 500 CI only.

The final ratio on the 4s and 5s is same. Only difference is the gap between 3rd and 4th on 4s is reduced in 5s gearbox. Means less downshift, I found 4s a bit irritating while driving on some rough roads through Himalayas.

But you can get a set of gears from UK to reduce the gap in 3rd and 4th on 4s.

[Beast_of_Burden]

Unless there is/was a significant price difference, most std 350 customers ought to have been buying the 4s. I don't think RE sold too many of the 4s, if the availability in the user bike market is any indication.

I have one other query relating to the shift quality itself on the 5s. Is there a difference meaning better or is it false neutrals galore as usual?

Considering the 5s is more easily available in the used bike market, that should swing it decisively in its favor. IMHO, the fact that the gear shift is on the left and there is no neutral doesn't really detract from the authentic bullet experience, I am sure I will quickly get used to it.

[Rennjit]

Originally Posted by bj96

The final drive ratio is same (1:1) in both 5s and 4s. Hence, top gear cruising should not be different...

Originally Posted by Randhawa

The final ratio on the 4s and 5s is same...

Could you guys explain what is meant by final drive ratio 1:1 ? hope primary & final chain drives have same ratios in both machines. From RE manuals, gear box top ratios are like: 4S> 5.32:1 & 5S> 4.726:1. Any advantage to 5S in terms of top speed/ lower engine rpm at same speeds?

[bj96]

Originally Posted by bj96

The final drive ratio is same (1:1) in both 5s and 4s. Hence, top gear cruising should not be different.

Originally Posted by Rennjit

what is meant by final drive ratio 1:1 ?

I correct myself. I meant final gear (5th in 5s and 4th in 4s) ratio is 1:1 as Bullets have no overdrive. My bad for using wrong terminology.

Originally Posted by Rennjit

primary & final chain drives have same ratios in both machines.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Rennjit

From RE manuals, gear box top ratios are like: 4S> 5.32:1 & 5S> 4.726:1. Any advantage to 5S in terms of top speed/ lower engine rpm at same speeds?

Ok, here are the sprockets teeth on both models:

1. Engine= 25T
2. Clutch= 56T
3. top gear teeth = 16T for 4s and 18T for 5s.
4. Rear wheel sprocket teeth= 56T

Use this website Modern Motorcycling Ltd. | Suzuki Motorcycles, Ratio's Page, 'Dealer of Choice!' to calculate the RPMs and speeds of 4s and 5s at top gear. The engine max RPM is 5500 on both.

At 3000 RPM 4s makes about 70 km/h while 5s makes 79 Km/h. In other words if you are cruising at ~70 km/h, Electra 5s engine will make less RPMs, more relaxed, hence, better fuel economy. The difference is about 10%.

-BJ

[bj96]

Originally Posted by bj96

Use this website Modern Motorcycling Ltd. | Suzuki Motorcycles, Ratio's Page, 'Dealer of Choice!' to calculate the RPMs and speeds of 4s and 5s at top gear. The engine max RPM is 5500 on both.
-BJ

For a std 19" rim + tyre, Bullet wheel dia is about 26".

Rear wheel chain sprocket is 38T (not 56T as posted last)

[Beast_of_Burden]

@Bj96 - Any idea about of the number of teeth on front sprocket(smaller one off the gearbox)? Do all the models have the same number of teeth on the front sprocket? If the answer is No and if the sprockets are freely swappable, the possibility of making the final drive ratio, for that matter all ratios a little taller by putting in a sprocket with an extra tooth exists.

My bro had bought a used 1970 bullet which had one tooth less than the standard for reducing the ratios, an adaptation for a bike that is mostly ridden in the hills. As might be expected, it was sprightly but had extremely low top speed . So the idea of swapping sprockets is not new, it has been around for a long time. We thought it was a characteristic of the old engine, found out the real cause when it was time to change the chain and sprockets

[bj96]

Originally Posted by Beast_of_Burden

@Bj96 - Any idea about of the number of teeth on front sprocket(smaller one off the gearbox)?

I think 4s 350 has 16T, 5s has 18T and 500cc 4s has 17T, and these sprockets are swappable.

[Beast_of_Burden]

Originally Posted by bj96

At 3000 RPM 4s makes about 70 km/h while 5s makes 79 Km/h. In other words if you are cruising at ~70 km/h, Electra 5s engine will make less RPMs, more relaxed, hence, better fuel economy. The difference is about 10%.

-BJ

So, there is a difference between 4s and 5s. the 5s does higher speeds at lower rpm compared to the 4s. Please confirm that I am reading this right.

By the same token, the 5s would cruise slightly more relaxed than the 500 CI by about 5%. The 500CI would be doing 100 kph at 4000 rpm while the 5s would be doing the same speed at 3800 rpm.

The calculator comes up with a top speed of 124 kph at 5000 rpm for the 500 CI and a top speed of 131 kph at 5000 rpm for the 5s. Are these numbers plausible?