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Old 1st December 2009, 15:22   #1
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Default Suzuki Shogun Query

I own a 1996 model suzuki shogun and did an engine overhaul last week.Got a rebore done and put in a brand new 2nd oversize SAM piston kit/rings.Yesterday, while riding at a constant speed of 45km/hr, the engine seized and came to an halt.I usually mix 2T oil with petrol, in the tank and rarely use the 2T oil box.Wondering what could have gone wrong? Now the bike seems to be running ok, but there is a slight rattling noise from the engine

Need your inputs on this.

Last edited by bblost : 1st December 2009 at 15:32. Reason: Only 2 smileys per post allowed. Please refer the rules before proceeding. Thanks
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Old 1st December 2009, 16:31   #2
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When running in, do not use the bike at constant speed , the speed [rpm] of the engine needs to vary a bit in between safe rpm zone. How much oil did you use [have to use a bit more than usual].
If as you say the bike stalled and than started working fine, you had a engine heat up and that caused the engine to seize.
Can not tell for sure what is the extend of damage with any inspection. But you may have damaged the bore due to this. Use a bit more oil and run it in, If the engine still feel harsh than you may need ring change.
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Old 1st December 2009, 16:33   #3
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recent re-bore, seize? = poor quality job mostly in terms of clearance. Open the bore & check cyl scoring, get any burrs removed then try run in again with some 30ml oil per litre of fuel. hope it recovers at the max with a new ring set. Have a look at similar live thread here though its HH splendor instead.

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Old 1st December 2009, 17:03   #4
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Thanks Dinar/Rennjit.
I have been using 30ml oil/ltr of petrol.I guess I need to open up the bore and check the extent of damage :( I hope it is not serious.
Yes, I did go through the HH splendour thread.Similar issues have been put up there too.Meanwhile, may be I will fix the oil pump and ensure that I use the 2t oil box,with a increased flow, during the run in.what say?
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Old 1st December 2009, 19:59   #5
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that would be a good thing to do.
the oil pump is there for a reason. to supply correct amount of oil at all times. you ll be much better off with it working..
you were doing 45 kmph, thats fine. which gear? how long?
a partial seizure during running in is obviously bad sign. if you have all the spare gaskets, open up the barrel and see the bore. you can post good quality pics if you seek input from people on the forum...
hope the bike is fine...
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Old 1st December 2009, 21:05   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicha View Post
I own a 1996 model suzuki shogun and did an engine overhaul last week.Got a rebore done and put in a brand new 2nd oversize SAM piston kit/rings.Yesterday, while riding at a constant speed of 45km/hr, the engine seized and came to an halt.I usually mix 2T oil with petrol, in the tank and rarely use the 2T oil box.Wondering what could have gone wrong? Now the bike seems to be running ok, but there is a slight rattling noise from the engine

Need your inputs on this.
Which oil were you using? It could have been caused by spurious oil or maybe even low grade/spurious "loose" oil filled from petrol bunks.

IMO, using the pump at the recommended setting and adding a bit extra in the tank is a better idea esp. for running in.
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Old 1st December 2009, 21:58   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicha View Post
Thanks Dinar/Rennjit.
I have been using 30ml oil/ltr of petrol.I guess I need to open up the bore and check the extent of damage :( I hope it is not serious.
Yes, I did go through the HH splendour thread.Similar issues have been put up there too.Meanwhile, may be I will fix the oil pump and ensure that I use the 2t oil box,with a increased flow, during the run in.what say?
Even if you use the oil tank for supply please add around 20ml/L of oil in the petrol [shogun engine rebuild needs it] specially after rebore.This will foul the plugs but till at least 500-600KM use this.
The oil may have been the cause, did you use the auto oil dispensing pump or was it added from the metal container? but thats a distant possibility.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 10:22   #8
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Thanks Guys for the response.
@Racoon/Dinar:
I had put in servo 2T oil that comes in the sachet.Yes, there was some oil left in the oil tank as well, may be the pump did not supply enough or the petrol/oil mix wasn't sufficient :(

@Nitrogary:
I was riding at that speed on the 4th gear for around 15 mins, on the highway.The engine sprang to life within few mins of the partial seizing.But lately I did observe the rattling noise, during idling and it fades away on higher rpms, which was not there before the seize happened :(.Will try to get the pics of the bore during the weekend.
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Old 7th December 2009, 13:41   #9
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at such a low speed, even for 15 complete minutes, the engine should not be bothered.
here is what i feel:
the shogun engine runs dangerously high clearances. so when you say rattle at idle, that is perfect. even brand new shoguns used to have piston slap. this is called cold clearance. this being a high speed engine, you need to provide those in such a way that at low temperatures and low speeds, the clearance is high, and as temperatures and speeds rise, the piston expands and clearances become adequate.

what i feel is when you rebored, the guy who did it left the block piston too tight. so at idle, if it was not making any sound, it would have heated up and run tight there as well, increasing friction. this generally heats up the engine too much and it ll stop operating.
i am not sure how deep the scratch marks are on your bore, but if you feel appropriate, you should consider a rehoning of the block, this will remove say 10-15 microns of material and then replace the rings of the same size. it may run loose, but its better than running tight.
this is one way of salvaging your engine.
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Old 7th December 2009, 14:09   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicha View Post
Thanks Guys for the response.
@Racoon/Dinar:
I had put in servo 2T oil that comes in the sachet.Yes, there was some oil left in the oil tank as well, may be the pump did not supply enough or the petrol/oil mix wasn't sufficient :(
The oil is Ok, I was using that for some time , before going to shell 2t.[IMO the best for shogun]. Any way use for some time, before opening the engine unless the mechanic is doing it for free.
where did you get the spares from?



Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrogary View Post
at such a low speed, even for 15 complete minutes, the engine should not be bothered.
here is what i feel:
the shogun engine runs dangerously high clearances. so when you say rattle at idle, that is perfect. even brand new shoguns used to have piston slap. this is called cold clearance. this being a high speed engine, you need to provide those in such a way that at low temperatures and low speeds, the clearance is high, and as temperatures and speeds rise, the piston expands and clearances become adequate.

what i feel is when you rebored, the guy who did it left the block piston too tight. so at idle, if it was not making any sound, it would have heated up and run tight there as well, increasing friction. this generally heats up the engine too much and it ll stop operating.
i am not sure how deep the scratch marks are on your bore, but if you feel appropriate, you should consider a rehoning of the block, this will remove say 10-15 microns of material and then replace the rings of the same size. it may run loose, but its better than running tight.
this is one way of salvaging your engine.
what you say is ture, but the piston slap is[was] never evident on a new [factory fresh] shogun, after about 10K km a little.
This problem has been faced with may people who had the engine bored [many on the forum too] very few people had a perfectly running bike after the job.
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Old 7th December 2009, 14:10   #11
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kicha,
My 2 cents:

1. SAM pistons are not known for their quality and it breaks down very easily, we usually avoid this make. Try to source ART piston though its hard to find but worth it.

2. Your mechanic might have done a poor job with bore and piston. Open up the Head and find out how bad are your piston and rings.

Cheers,
L&S

Last edited by lancer&shogun : 7th December 2009 at 14:12. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 7th December 2009, 14:43   #12
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Nothing but just a poor rebore job.
Nothing to do with SAM pistons as even brand new bore kit with ART piston which my friend installed it recently is struggling to keep up with my 4 stroke bike, reason already told you poor rebore or hone job.
Ask your mechanic what clearance they gave and why it happened.
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Old 8th December 2009, 11:15   #13
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Thanks again guys for your responses!
Nitorgary,
Yes ,I agree with your points.I guess the mech did not do a good rebore job in terms of providing the clearance atleast.And I have observed this slight slapping noise in brand new shoguns as well, not that evident,but there used to be.
I couldn't get the block opened this weekend bcos i was held up with work :( and hence couldn't get a chance to assess the damage.But if there are prominent scratches, which i hope not, then may be get the block honed again.

Dinar,
Btw I did fix the oil pump and have increased the oil flow for the time being.Couldn't get Shell :(, running on Servo now.Even I feel Shell2t is the best for shogun.

I was hunting for SGP, but couldn't quite find the 2nd OS piston set.
Finally managed to source SAM from a dealer near Matunga, Mumbai.Got the bearings changed as well (TVS -genuine SP).Do you have any contacts from whom I can source SGPs?Please let me know.

Lancer&Shogun,
I guess the mech has done a poor rebore work.
I believe Shoguns manufactured post 2000 came with SAM pistons.Correct me if I am wrong.

AjayBiz,
yes, I will post the details about the boring work, once I visit the garage, probably this weekend.
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Old 8th December 2009, 11:24   #14
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@Kicha , you try and find a mechanic from the TVS service center, there where always at least one or two mechanics who where good with shoguns, the service guys [the guys who work on the floor] will point you in the write direction.

Last edited by dinar : 8th December 2009 at 11:26.
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Old 30th December 2009, 17:58   #15
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@Kicha - Where did you get your rehauling done from ?

I restored my 1997 shogun completely, took about 6 months, right from scratch and sourcing all original equipment.

Maybe we can trade some tips, do PM.
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