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Old 17th December 2009, 02:02   #31
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Originally Posted by ron_9191 View Post
@ GreaseMonk

Sorry for getting you confused. Well here is what I meant. Let me explain what I do with an example. I dont know whether what I do is right or wrong, but I never had a single problem since I started following this.

Imagine you are riding at 70km/hr and you want to stop but you got a good 500 meters or 600 meters ahead.

half way down you shift to 3rd use the engine braking to slow you down to 30km/hr and then as you reach where you want to stop you tip it to 2nd now you are at 20km/hr

Now this is a good time to use the neutral finder, bring it to neutral and then hit the brakes to stop.

i hope this helps you.
So, when it was mentioned that the neutral finder should be used for downshifts, that was inaccurate, right? What was actually meant was the neutral finder should be used to get to neutral? I've tried downshifting from 4th to 3rd and 2nd using the neutral finder and it's really difficult. Not to mention the problems it may cause in the gearbox. Gears should be felt and engaged and the neutral finder doesn't give a very accurate feel unless you're very experienced and can keep a very steady foot when the bike is moving. Any inaccuracies here? If yes, please correct me.

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
A late question, but I am trying to understand how you guys shift using heel on a STD 350. Did you install a different lever for heel shifting ?

When you move from 1st to 2,3,4 do you actually take the leg off the foot peg and apply heel pressure on the lever ?
And how do you shift from 4-3-2 with heel ?
If this is done by taking the foot off the peg, how is it a better way of shifting ?
For upshifting (1-2-3-4) use the normal technique. For downshifting (4-3-2-1) use the normal technique. Shifting with the heel is not recommended because you can make mistakes and hit a false neutral quite easily. The only reason to downshift using the heel is to protect formal shoes. What reasons other people have, if not the same, I don't know.

For downshifting using your heel, lift your foot off the footpeg and lift the gear lever using the back of your heel. You have to hook your heel to the lever. The rubber covered part of the lever should be in contact with where your Tendo Calcaneus - the tendon from your Gastocnemius (calf muscle) - attaches to your heel. Pull up shift down.

The technique is dangerous to use while cornering to the right. I was dumb enough to do that one day and the tarmac caught my foot and almost turned it backwards! Nothing happened, fortunately.
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Old 17th December 2009, 11:24   #32
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The neutral finder, as the name suggests, is to disengage whichever gear (usually 3rd or 4th gear) the bike is in and bring it to the neutral position and then you can upshift or downshift depending on the situation.

The neutral finder is handy when you have to suddenly decelerate (say while on the 4th gear) and you do not have the time downshift gradually.
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Old 17th December 2009, 12:27   #33
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Originally Posted by ron_9191 View Post
@ GreaseMonk

Sorry for getting you confused. Well here is what I meant. Let me explain what I do with an example. I dont know whether what I do is right or wrong, but I never had a single problem since I started following this.

Imagine you are riding at 70km/hr and you want to stop but you got a good 500 meters or 600 meters ahead.

half way down you shift to 3rd use the engine braking to slow you down to 30km/hr and then as you reach where you want to stop you tip it to 2nd now you are at 20km/hr

Now this is a good time to use the neutral finder, bring it to neutral and then hit the brakes to stop.

i hope this helps you.
Interesting. Unfortunately my neutral finder doesn't work from 2nd gear. Only 1,3 and 4. Thanks for the details anyway.
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Old 18th December 2009, 22:29   #34
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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
The neutral finder, as the name suggests, is to disengage whichever gear (usually 3rd or 4th gear) the bike is in and bring it to the neutral position and then you can upshift or downshift depending on the situation.

The neutral finder is handy when you have to suddenly decelerate (say while on the 4th gear) and you do not have the time downshift gradually.

i think if you want to suddenly decelerate you would want to downshift and brake at the same time. going into neutral would not be an efficient way to stop quickly.

i dont click into neutral until i come to a complete stop. you never know if you'll want/need to move quickly! lol
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Old 19th December 2009, 00:22   #35
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Neutral finder is a convenience feature to get 'actual neutral' positioned btw 1-2 gear, not requiring press 'n releases as with pedal. Peculiar shifting/ selection mechanism of 4 speed box necessitates neutral spaces between each gear pair, a design feature to avoid 2 ratios getting locked while changing. In fact shifting is a 2 click affair at one stretch, first to intermediate space and then to opted ratio. Now if force applied on gear pedal is less or is not given full movement, selector slots in dummy neutral & tend to resist further shift. Continue pushing & that famous "Katrrrr" sound comes, this is dependent on shifter setup condition & rpms too. With the finder it is one long press & so it gets through those spaces.

I've used it few times as shortcut to get to first gear too. Feel the shifter coming down through gears & give it one slight press as its low & it slots to first. Stopped it as i didn't see right, that was some 8yrs back. Would say use finder as you stop & shift with pedal rest times.
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Old 19th December 2009, 01:54   #36
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Originally Posted by Rennjit View Post
Peculiar shifting/ selection mechanism of 4 speed box necessitates neutral spaces between each gear pair, a design feature to avoid 2 ratios getting locked while changing.
I didn't know that. Is it actually a design feature? I do know that while shifting gears with the Bullet's temperamental gearbox, one has to feel the disengagement of the current gear (or pair of cogs, as you would say it), the 'dummy neutral' and then the engagement of the next gear. That has to be done to avoid the embarrassing over-revving in a false neutral!
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Old 20th December 2009, 11:40   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennjit View Post
Neutral finder is a convenience feature to get 'actual neutral' positioned btw 1-2 gear, not requiring press 'n releases as with pedal. Peculiar shifting/ selection mechanism of 4 speed box necessitates neutral spaces between each gear pair, a design feature to avoid 2 ratios getting locked while changing. In fact shifting is a 2 click affair at one stretch, first to intermediate space and then to opted ratio. Now if force applied on gear pedal is less or is not given full movement, selector slots in dummy neutral & tend to resist further shift. Continue pushing & that famous "Katrrrr" sound comes, this is dependent on shifter setup condition & rpms too. With the finder it is one long press & so it gets through those spaces.

I've used it few times as shortcut to get to first gear too. Feel the shifter coming down through gears & give it one slight press as its low & it slots to first. Stopped it as i didn't see right, that was some 8yrs back. Would say use finder as you stop & shift with pedal rest times.
Hi Rennijit,

Did you mean you have used the neutral finder to get to first gear. If yes, then how, because from what I know, the lowest gear that can be got through it is the 2nd gear. Please clarify this.

Also, just want to give my 2 cents on the good or bad part. Using the neutral finder is just another way of downshifting that many people use, including myself. I have heard some mechanics say that this is a beter way & another school of thought says that it is not good. But I haven't seen any benefit or fault out of this way of downshifting. The only thing that is bad for a Bullet gearbox or for that matter any gearbox is to change gears in the improper RPM band. The gears in most other bikes are relatively lighter & there is just one neutral in them, & so it could be a little easy for some on those bikes, apart from the fact that the Std350 has the mechanism on the right. Use the appropriate amount of force on the lever & when the engine speed is just correct, & I can assure you that you wouldn't face any issues.

Using the heel to upshift, i.e. lifting your foot & tapping the lever, is again another way, but I don't advocate it owing to an unsurety about the amount of force you might be exerting. Rest is personal opinion.

And I read in somebody's reply on blipping the throttle a little while downshifting, that's actually a better way of doing it. Try it once & you will know. The reason is that when you downshift, you are selecting a lower gear & the engine speed should be similar to the speed when you would upshift. For example, you are riding on 3rd gear, now while shifting to 2nd the engine speed should be similar to what you would have while shifting to 3rd from 2nd. So just blip the throttle a little.

Also, at least for the Bullet, change the gears & get it to neutral while the bike is still rolling, unless you are stuck in a situation where you cannot do it this way. Try changing the gears when it is standstill with the engine running.


Take care everybody.

Happy thumping,
Prakhar
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Old 21st December 2009, 10:54   #38
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Originally Posted by mitchontheroad View Post
i think if you want to suddenly decelerate you would want to downshift and brake at the same time. going into neutral would not be an efficient way to stop quickly.

i dont click into neutral until i come to a complete stop. you never know if you'll want/need to move quickly! lol
Mitch, if you have read my post correctly, I said "when you have to decelareate and DO NOT have the time to downshift gradually"...You jam the clutch and brake and then use the neutral finder.
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Old 21st December 2009, 16:04   #39
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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
Hi Rennjit, ..Did you mean you have used the neutral finder to get to first gear. If yes, then how ..
Feel the neutral finder pedal coming through ratios, give a good press from /at 2nd, most times the slider assy inside slips past neutral & (clanks) into 1st. Not a good thing to do.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 22:39   #40
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Originally Posted by Rennjit View Post
Feel the neutral finder pedal coming through ratios, give a good press from /at 2nd, most times the slider assy inside slips past neutral & (clanks) into 1st. Not a good thing to do.
I doubt that, don't take it the other way, but a neutral finder would never take you to first gear in my opinion.

Can somebody else clarify this or correct me in case I am wrong?

Happy thumping,
Prakhar
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Old 24th December 2009, 04:50   #41
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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
I doubt that, don't take it the other way, but a neutral finder would never take you to first gear in my opinion.

Can somebody else clarify this or correct me in case I am wrong?

Happy thumping,
Prakhar
It would never take you to 1st gear if the gearbox is in excellent condition and, more importantly, the neutral finder cam is adjusted properly. But, I haven't tried to 'slingshot' past neutral and don't plan to so I don't know if it works on all Bullets. Like Rennjit indicated, don't try it!

The play between the neutral finder lever and gear indicator has been mentioned earlier but I'd like to know what the implications of more-than-necessary play are. Can anybody help?
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Old 29th December 2009, 19:16   #42
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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
I doubt that, don't take it the other way, but a neutral finder would never take you to first gear in my opinion. Can somebody else clarify this or correct me in case I am wrong?
from RE service manual; see last point under Neutral finder adjustment.
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Old 30th December 2009, 19:36   #43
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hey gooney, youre right. i misread it!
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Old 3rd January 2010, 16:31   #44
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Originally Posted by Rennjit View Post
from RE service manual; see last point under Neutral finder adjustment.
Attachment 253262
Hey Renn,

Thanks for putting up that picture & for explaining how it would go to first gear. But as Darth says, I am referring to a well tuned gearbox & not of a scenario when the travel would be more. But just like Darth, I am also curious to know about the implications of such a scenario. You mention you can slip past neutral to first in your bike, so maybe you can share some observations.

Take care.

Happy thumping,
Prakhar
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Old 4th January 2010, 10:04   #45
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Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
..Thanks for putting up that picture & for explaining how it would go to first gear. But as Darth says, I am referring to a well tuned gearbox & not of a scenario when the travel would be more. But just like Darth, I am also curious to know about the implications of such a scenario. ..
^ picture just says why & how Neutral Finder over/under shifts wrf improper settings & the possibility to slot first with NF though not intended for. Ok, so with a well set box don't we get false neutrals? and don't some enthusiastic shifts overshoot next ratio?
See this pic showing box at Neutral, 'N-1' indicates spacing between N,1 gears &'1'is first ratio. Slider assy moves from R to L for downshifts. Nothing stops slider at neutral other than NF pedal's limiter. A good press from/at 2nd gear, imparts enough moment for slider assy to slip past 'N-1' & slot 1st though pedal movement is stopped at N position.
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Works on a slowing down bike as rpm also aids moment. May be a well set precise box won't do but free-er boxes does easy. I haven't tried specifically on well set box however mine had no issues as well. Be gentle on NF gets neutral. This is how i did:
Quote:
Feel the neutral finder pedal coming through ratios, give a good press from /at 2nd, most times the slider assy inside slips past neutral & (clanks) into 1st. Not a good thing to do.
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonk View Post
Interesting. Unfortunately my neutral finder doesn't work from 2nd gear. Only 1,3 and 4. Thanks for the details anyway.
^ no idea how this happens. any info?

Last edited by Rennjit : 4th January 2010 at 10:09.
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