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Old 18th October 2011, 21:02   #1996
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

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Originally Posted by hexanerax View Post
Generally , oxygen sensors influence the mixture at lower rpm and throttle positions.
Yes, because ECUs use a map at WOT.


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After the engine is warmed up, Injection duration is generally influenced by manifold air pressure ( that is a function of throttle position and engine vacuum ( influenced by engine load)), and throttle position.
Stoichometry has to be maintained. MAP is an indirect way of arriving at MAF.

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Ignition timing is generally controlled more by engine speed and temperature and generally increased temperatures will show increasingly retarded timing as will lower RPM ranges.
Charge density extremely important. (Vacuum advance in cars!)

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Hard data on the c5 ecu is difficult to come by and rarely does the manufacturer release the actual mapping or the logic.
This I thought would come from the hordes of fans, and tuners.

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A group we met running BMW 1200 GS bikes had serious issues with altitude above 16000 Ft but the enfields never missed a beat. There was misfire above 17000 Ft but i guess that was just a lack of oxygen and very high load conditions.
The Keihin people were surprised when RE insisted that the system be calibrated till 18000 ft. Ladakh was the testing ground. Apparently the norm is to calibrate to 12000 ft. No wonder the BMWs had problems.

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By the way , lean burn was just a marketing term used by enfield and is in no way connected to the actual stratified charge engines that merit the use of that term.
Yup. More importantly, if you drift too much from the ideal, the cat won't work. One of the reasons why the (significantly) more expensive wideband is not in extensive use.


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The very operating principles of a petrol engine ( variable compression ) make it impossible to run the engine in a lean or ideal condition over the entire rpm and load range. A standard CI 350 engine can be run lean enough to be borderline in terms of detonation and a lean burn will run rich over part of it's range. Most engines need to run quite rich ( AF ratio below stoichiometric ) in order to keep temperatures in the combustion chamber at safe levels.
The lean burn AVL engines had optimized valve geometry and improved piston and ring design. this allowed better breathing and burning combined with lower blow by losses.
The constant vacuum carb did its part by allowing the throttle slide to be completely controlled by engine vacuum rather than our right wrist ( which just opens the throttle plate rather than lifting the slide.
Too many issues to discuss. And lets say on some, we agree to differ!

We have strayed greatly from sprag failures and timing setups!


Quote:
Originally Posted by siddharth_menon View Post
Here is an abstract from wiki
....
ECU programming has lot of scope in terms of tweaking your engine.
Thanks. It would be great if you continue your homework, and share with us the knowledge gleaned.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 18th October 2011, 22:54   #1997
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Thanks. Even I, a non Bulleteer, know that!


The UCE500 will need an index mark. Most probably a missing tooth.

Regards
Sutripta
There are plenty of Bulleteer and non Bulleteer who dont know the difference between the three RE engines. I thought may be you don't with no intentions to tread on your ego.

Nope, its does not have a missing tooth for index mark but a wider tooth.
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C5 export uses a wide band heated Lambda.

While C5 and Std gets the INA NRB as they share the same crank, rest is getting the same SKF NRB.

Auto de-comp is supposed to be active below 350 RPM on paper but it can stick up to 700 RPM.

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Originally Posted by ac 427 View Post
My C5 has brakes made of cheese at the rear. My bull is now 10 months old and had developed issues. Reduced braking is one of the major ones.



My C5 over the speed of 100 kmph is extremely skittish, it gives me no confidence to go faster than that, i run on 22 PSI in the front and 28 psi at the rear.

My C5 is more comfortable taking a left turn than on the right side. I have brought this to the notice of the ASM (area sales manager) but to no respite.

The Fuel Injection on my bullet makes the bullet 'cough' example in 3rd gear at 35 kmph, the bike 'coughs'

There is premature rusting on the paint job, the electricals have given up in just one season of rains (even after using the fugly rain protection for my bull)

The Fuel consumption has hit a all time new low - i get an average of 25 kmpl, which i guess is bad.

In all the problems mentioned above for me the biggest and most disappointing one from my bike is the high speed instability.

If any of you have any suggestions for the same - do let me know.

Regards,
ac
First try 18 in front and 28 in rear tyre. Get the handle bar adjusted and try what I had suggested to Adrian in my previous post.

You should go for the Bosch platinum plus plug and try to get the re-mapp done as you will get the plug free which is now Rs 800 along with another high temp rate secondary plug. I assure you of the jerk at 35 will be gone.

Can you check out the no on booth the plugs and let me know!

Get the air filter replaced.

If you are on the first set of brake shoe and do hard riding a bit then they could be gone by now. They don't last long as the original set is shorter in length compared to what you get at the workshop. Get a new set and cushion rubbers if you have a play in the rear wheel when you apply brake while on centre stand.

Last edited by Randhawa : 18th October 2011 at 23:04.
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Old 19th October 2011, 06:47   #1998
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

As suggested by the gurus, I have changed my C5's engine oil and oil filter once I crossed 150 kms yesterday. The oil used was from a large drum which had Motul marked on it. Quantity was 2.5 lits.

Any other suggestions now for us to be careful?
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Old 19th October 2011, 08:59   #1999
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

has anybody thought of changing the rear tyre of CL500

below figures are CL500 desert storm specs, which one is the tyre size?

Rear tyre: 120/80 - 18(Domestic), 110/80 - 18(Export)

Last edited by ruchirtnt : 19th October 2011 at 09:17.
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Old 19th October 2011, 09:45   #2000
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudipta View Post
As suggested by the gurus, I have changed my C5's engine oil and oil filter once I crossed 150 kms yesterday. The oil used was from a large drum which had Motul marked on it. Quantity was 2.5 lits.

Any other suggestions now for us to be careful?
Assuming the Indian 500cc UCE engine is the same as the export U.S. version 2.5 liters sounds like way too much oil.

Although my manual says the oil capacity is 2.75 Litre, I don't know of anyone who has been able to put over 1.9 Litres of oil in their 500cc UCE without overfilling it. This includes those who (like myself yesterday) have changed the oil and filter.

Part of this is due to the oil that is trapped in the engines side covers and short of laying the bike almost completely down on its side getting this trapped oil out is almost impossible.

If your bike doesn't blow oil out of the vent into the airbox then your probably safe with what you have but please do check to see if the crankcase vent is blowing oil out after you've ridden it a bit.
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Old 19th October 2011, 17:37   #2001
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

ArizonaJim,

Thanks for your inputs. Couple of things he did was he also started the engine briefly once he had the drain nut open for some time and the oil filter removed. It gushed out some oil thru the oil filter hole. Just a few seconds and he stopped the engine. His point was that the old oil gets trapped above the piston and he wants to clear that out.

I would also check the measurement of the jug that he was using to fill the oil.

I can feel the change in the note of the thump now. It is sounding more like the other bullets, a lot clear and distinct thumps. Also I am hearing the continuous sound of tic-tic when I am on the bike (you got to be very careful to hear it over the other noise) and it seems like it is coming from the head of the engine. I will check the other bullet also and then compare if it is a problem. May be it is the first timer playing the trick on me as I am too concerned to run in my bike in the best possible way and too anxious about it.
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Old 19th October 2011, 18:42   #2002
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

sudipta,

Some people feel the need to run a "flush" through at first service, as much to remove fine metal content that arises with bedding in as it is to purge out the running in grade oil (if there is such a thing). Purging is wise if you are switching from strait mineral to full synthetic or vice versa. I've heard of purging products but I don't trust them to lubricate and be sufficiantly viscos. I would just slip in an extra oil change between scheduled services if I was worried, and if I was going to go over to synthetic I'd make it an hybred semi-syth oil in between change. It has binders that co-agulate the mineral remnant to the synthetic. Starting a motor with the oil dumped is a 100% No No! hydraulic lifters and big end bearings etc are supposed to "force float" under oil pressure. If you have cleaned the oil out that way you have begun to do damage even if very small. To do it every oil change will noticebly shorten engine life. 100ml of old oil will do nowhere near that damage and the new filter will catch anything serious polluting it. Finally with RE's I'd be inclined to "prime" the fresh filter (soak it in fresh oil) before fitting to avoid the possibility of the new filter resisting oil flow for a brief moment on initial start up.
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Old 19th October 2011, 20:33   #2003
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
There are plenty of Bulleteer and non Bulleteer who dont know the difference between the three RE engines. I thought may be you don't with no intentions to tread on your ego.

Nope, its does not have a missing tooth for index mark but a wider tooth.
Attachment 829189


C5 export uses a wide band heated Lambda.

While C5 and Std gets the INA NRB as they share the same crank, rest is getting the same SKF NRB.

Auto de-comp is supposed to be active below 350 RPM on paper but it can stick up to 700 RPM.
Thanks. Always look forward to relevant (in the given context) information.

For the sprag, do you have the bearing manufacturers (not REs) part #?

Any luck with the ignition timing setup?

The timing 'marks' on the C5 - soft iron?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 19th October 2011, 23:38   #2004
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudipta View Post
As suggested by the gurus, I have changed my C5's engine oil and oil filter once I crossed 150 kms yesterday. The oil used was from a large drum which had Motul marked on it. Quantity was 2.5 lits.

Any other suggestions now for us to be careful?
Be careful till 500km, make sure you don't exceed 65 till then and don't run it for more then 20min at a stretch. From 500 to 2000km, do not exceed 90km/h. After that do whatever you like.

Quantity used is way too much. 2.5L is used only at factory or when engine is split open and put together. Depend how much you managed to drain from the engine, usually it's not more then 2.25L at max. If you are sure they fill in 2.5L then please drain at least 300ml. UCE can run quite well with oil as low as 1L but more will certainly cause back pressure and problem with running in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruchirtnt View Post
has anybody thought of changing the rear tyre of CL500

below figures are CL500 desert storm specs, which one is the tyre size?

Rear tyre: 120/80 - 18(Domestic), 110/80 - 18(Export)
120/80/18 rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudipta View Post
ArizonaJim,

Thanks for your inputs. Couple of things he did was he also started the engine briefly once he had the drain nut open for some time and the oil filter removed. It gushed out some oil thru the oil filter hole. Just a few seconds and he stopped the engine. His point was that the old oil gets trapped above the piston and he wants to clear that out.

I would also check the measurement of the jug that he was using to fill the oil.

I can feel the change in the note of the thump now. It is sounding more like the other bullets, a lot clear and distinct thumps. Also I am hearing the continuous sound of tic-tic when I am on the bike (you got to be very careful to hear it over the other noise) and it seems like it is coming from the head of the engine. I will check the other bullet also and then compare if it is a problem. May be it is the first timer playing the trick on me as I am too concerned to run in my bike in the best possible way and too anxious about it.
Please for love of God, never ever let any darn mechanic run the engine dry trying to drain oil. You will screw up the big end and hydraulic tappets. Listen to what Greg has said and I mean very carefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussigreg View Post
sudipta,
Starting a motor with the oil dumped is a 100% No No! hydraulic lifters and big end bearings etc are supposed to "force float" under oil pressure. If you have cleaned the oil out that way you have begun to do damage even if very small. To do it every oil change will noticebly shorten engine life. 100ml of old oil will do nowhere near that damage and the new filter will catch anything serious polluting it. Finally with RE's I'd be inclined to "prime" the fresh filter (soak it in fresh oil) before fitting to avoid the possibility of the new filter resisting oil flow for a brief moment on initial start up.
Spot on mate. A+


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Thanks. Always look forward to relevant (in the given context) information.

For the sprag, do you have the bearing manufacturers (not REs) part #?

Any luck with the ignition timing setup?

The timing 'marks' on the C5 - soft iron?

Regards
Sutripta
I tried once to get the manf no for the sprag but there was none as it was specifically manufactured for RE(I was told, don't know how true is that) nor were any marking on the sprag. Once I took the measurements, will try to find it if that helps. I think Honda and Ducati has used sprag on their bikes sometime in their history but don't know who else uses now. New sprag does not have much info either.

Older Sprag
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New Sprag
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Chances of sourcing just the sprag are close to none due to the fact that it is housed in between the engine sprocket and ES gear. If or when the sprag gets damaged it damages the race on the ES gear and the engine sprocket too which you can not get as a single part individually. Hence it comes as a one part three piece unit. On the new upgraded sprag what other thing has been upgraded is the strengthened race on the ES gear. Earlier due to race getting damaged, the sprag used to fail because of it.

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I will definitely let you know about the TCI upgrade on non UCE this week.


Feels like soft Iron to me as the index and the rotor drum are casted as one piece.

Last edited by Randhawa : 19th October 2011 at 23:39.
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Old 20th October 2011, 10:48   #2005
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

I got a new Sprag clutch installed last year & it failed again. I think it could be because of my auto decomp.


Will get them checked once I get loads of time
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Old 20th October 2011, 10:58   #2006
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

We heard you the first time and repeating things over and over again wont help you. But I am saying again, do post the picture of your new sprag failure. I am probably sure they cleared out the old sparg in stock.
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Old 20th October 2011, 13:05   #2007
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

going by the thread and other posts and reviews on CL500, i find that maximum of the riders are complaining on the maintenance part of CL500, is it so? i still have time to change my booking from CL500 DS to CL350
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Old 20th October 2011, 14:17   #2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruchirtnt
going by the thread and other posts and reviews on CL500, i find that maximum of the riders are complaining on the maintenance part of CL500, is it so? i still have time to change my booking from CL500 DS to CL350
It's more of a instability issue then anything else. C3 runs out of breath where C5 starts to show it's power and instability. Not sure if the instability issue is taken care off by the new forks.
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Old 20th October 2011, 14:53   #2009
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

I know I'm gonna come under fire for this from every side but I feel the recommended running in proceedure is too gentle and too long and, I'm betting my bike's engine life and fuel economy that I'm right.

No other manufacturer is this restrictive in their owners manuel. At a 50km/h first stage they are effectively saying don't use top gear in the first 500km and that is stupid. (I select 5th at 70km/h)

At 80km/h in top this bike is cruising at a rev that it can handle a hill or wind without lugging Yes I agree don't labor, over-rev, overheat a fresh motor but if you mother it with speeds under 70 for 1000km it will be in danger from coking up, and worse, the bore will start the early stages of glazing.

running in is about exactly that, "running in", which means working up cylinder pressures (and vacume, cant do that on a dyno). The sought of parts that need to become work hardened like cam lobes, will simply do that anyway so long as you ride it with common sense.

Ok fire when ready.
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Old 20th October 2011, 18:13   #2010
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

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Originally Posted by aussigreg View Post
I know I'm gonna come under fire for this from every side but I feel the recommended running in proceedure is too gentle and too long and, I'm betting my bike's engine life and fuel economy that I'm right.

No other manufacturer is this restrictive in their owners manuel. At a 50km/h first stage they are effectively saying don't use top gear in the first 500km and that is stupid. (I select 5th at 70km/h)

At 80km/h in top this bike is cruising at a rev that it can handle a hill or wind without lugging Yes I agree don't labor, over-rev, overheat a fresh motor but if you mother it with speeds under 70 for 1000km it will be in danger from coking up, and worse, the bore will start the early stages of glazing.

running in is about exactly that, "running in", which means working up cylinder pressures (and vacume, cant do that on a dyno). The sought of parts that need to become work hardened like cam lobes, will simply do that anyway so long as you ride it with common sense.

Ok fire when ready.
I ran in my bike by the seat of the pants approach, which turned out to be exactly as described above. It just seemed too foolish to keep the big cylinder as restrictive as RE suggested. And yes I did a customary 80 MPH test once it had crossed 2500 kms. It felt like a HONDA at that speed, as there was nary a vibration........yes you can start firing at me as well

Last edited by bradhey : 20th October 2011 at 18:14.
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