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Old 27th May 2010, 10:17   #331
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Hi!
Thanks for all the appreciation and feedback.
Randhawa , The Pirelli Sport Demon is an excellent choice for on road driving and is available here in Dehradun ( although in limited stocks ) . A set of mudguard stays cost me Rs 150 here but the curve of the mudguard doesnot match the tyre and i have a 19" mudguard for the classsic 350 on order .
Your feedback on engine noise reduction went a long way in making me feel more confident about the long term performance of the bike. The bike being restored in the picture is the model that was sold as the Lightning 535 and was phased out in 2002. To my knowledge , these bikes were all made in the Tamilnadu plant of Enfield. The Machismo 4 speed ( called the 350 A ) had a similar primary chain cover and was built in Jaipur. Incidentally , the early Thunderbird models also had similar primary chain covers although Bright polished.The 535 had a special Hi compression piston and a set of German Rings. The bore kit of that bike ran to 10000 Rs and the rings alone were about 3000 Rs in cost. Constant problems with Piston failure and seizure forced Enfield to pull the model but if you are lucjy enough to ride one , it has performance that is equivalent to the Classic 500 at the bottom and probably better roll on in the midrange , losing out at the top That bike has seen an indicated 130 on the dial before i ran out of road and courage :P.

Unfortunately , I didnot take many pictures during the rebuild and after. The bike is now in Bangalore with my brother and he sent me some more pics which I am posting here. We replaced the high petrol tank ( like the T bird tank) with a standard tank and also replaced the gaudy 535 instrumentation with the T bird meter set. A fuel gauge was also plumbed into the tank and the bike has now been mildly tuned with an oversize (120 ) jet. a bigger 125 jet is awaiting the fitment of a K & N filter and a free flow exhaust ( maybe the upswept from the classic ). Also planned is a minor modification to the steering head which has been modeled in Autodesk Inventor and prototyped and is fitted to a Thunderbird here in Dehradun. Will post that picture this evening. BTW thats my brother in the photo and the last picture is the original L 535 ( after a major accident ; the frame down tube was bent and we replaced the frame at home , rebuilding and restoring the whole vehicle at that time)

Regards
Naren
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Old 27th May 2010, 13:41   #332
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@hexanerax : the white bull on the last page yours ? have seen Bull like that in mussorie and dehradun . I am also from dehradun. Nice collection you got there.
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Old 27th May 2010, 17:37   #333
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Yeh, my eyes glued on to your tools set, fantastic. I have seen over and over again, that if you have the right tool, you work so much better, faster and accurately !!

The 535 has been well disguised as a STD 350, and would kick *** if anyone tries to Bull(y) you........ have you ever come across any incident of this nature HEXANERAX...?
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Old 28th May 2010, 22:39   #334
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@Shan : Thanks mate. You may have seen that bike . It's a regular visitor to Mussorie.

@ Bradhey : Certainly! Good tools are the third most important thing when it comes to home maintenance of the Bull. ( The first is the Bullet itself and the second , the guy behind the tools ). The 535 has embarassed many a pulsar and Karizma rider out in B'lore. Ive even had a pulsar 220 rider pull up to me at the next red light and ask if my Bullet was running on Nitro .

@ all Classic 500 Owners :

Can you all post some Fuel consumption figures for comparison. Here is mine

Odometer : 2800 KM
Tyre : 100x90 R18 ( fr) and 120x80 R18 ( rear )
Fuel Consumption (City) : 25 KM / Lit to 27 KM / Lit
Fuel Consumption (Hwy) : not done any ride longer than 35 Km in one stretch so no numbers here.

I tend to ride hard in lower gears on rough and winding roads around Dehradun so my figures may tend to be on the lower side.

A few numbers from the LB 500 group would also be interesting.
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Old 28th May 2010, 22:42   #335
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Hey guys,
My C5 has done 3k on ODO with currently no major issues.
Second service is done without any oil change,however I wish to go for 300v,as recommended here.
Should I switch to it right now or can wait for the 3rd service,keeping best results in mind.
I guess RE service center would not do this synthetic for me,so can I get it done locally.
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Old 29th May 2010, 07:23   #336
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@hexanerax: what a wonderful rebuiLd there! An entire engine overhaul alone...kudos dude. I have a LB 500 2010 model and will post details soon.
@Randhawa: I have been glued to this thread! Thanks for keeping it updated.
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Old 29th May 2010, 17:36   #337
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Naren,
great pics of the engine overhaul. BTW, how were you able to get the bore kit for the Lightning, a friend of mine had so much trouble looking for it for his bike.. The oft mentioned problem with the lack of availability of spare parts :-)
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Old 30th May 2010, 13:10   #338
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Hi,
The lightning bore kit is almost impossible to find. A few are floating around for about Rs 22000 Rs each. We picked up the kit when it was available at a much cheaper 10000 Rs. Best bet for a kit now is to pick it up on line from Hitchcock. You can get well made parts for a little more than 40000. The Big Iron Beast is expensive to run and maintain . This is where the classic 500 steps in to satisfy us big bore fans.

Regards
Naren
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Old 2nd June 2010, 13:54   #339
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Dear C5 riders,

Has anyone managed to crack a solution for the popping/mild explosion with the use of Up-swept silencer? Its gets annoying on longer rides.. :(

Also, while hard acceleration, there is a noticeable increase in the overall vibration, during the acceleration period. Somewhat similar to an aircraft when its just accelerating hard on the runway before take-off. Is this normal?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 17:09   #340
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@Hex-Here are my readings

ODO-11K

Winter figures
Worst 22km/l and average around 25-32km/L

Summers

32-38km/L with max speed under 65km/h
27-32km/L with speed range 65-110 city riding

Highway- 32-35km/L average speed 80km/h

@Terminator- I'll sugest to wait till third service.

@MadKhris- Just want to share the good/bad and ugly of C5 so we all can benefit.

@Nasir- There are ways to avoid the after-fire which we all C5 owners with upswept exhaust don't like.



Keep it under 65km/h and it will help Secondly while deceleration from anything above 70km/h, try not to fully retract (anit-clock-wise)the throttle and keep tapping the throttle until you settle down at lower speed. This will help a lot if you can get used to it. It's like keeping the engine at higher rpm for sudden acceleration- the one you hear in F1 racing when any racer slows down to take a hammer head.

I have yet to block the PAV but will try sooner and report back if that helps. I do not believe in rich or lean fuel mixture theory related to after-fire sound on upswept. As the noise comes at any given time irrespective of hot or cold engine.


Vibration to some extend on RE bikes is normal and we cant do much about it due to the inherited vibe dna from the old thumpers. Although if you feel the vibrations on your bull has increased then try this as I had very positive result with this method-

Loosen up the engine mounting bolts on the frame. Let it idle for few seconds and increase RPM while holding it for few seconds at top end and let it idle again. Repeat it for 4 times and then let it idle again without increasing the RPM for a min or so. Be careful not to overheat the engine. At the end, tightened all the nuts and bolts of the engine mountings. That should help if your engine has no problems and you have done the running in properly.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 18:42   #341
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Thanks Randhawa.
Shall try the engine bolts re-tightening technique and see if it helps. Not sure if i would need any special tools to loosen the engine mounting bolts.

Quote:
That should help if your engine has no problems and you have done the running in properly.
Now, there are lots of theories / techniques floating regarding the running-in. Ideally, and to be on the safer side, we would like to stick to the process explained in the Manuel. But thats a bit difficult when it comes to running-in a C5, and we all know why.
Therefore, i would take it with a pinch of salt if anyone claims that he is done the running-in EXACTLY as per the Manuel.

I would like C5 rides to share their Running-in process and the subsequent behavior of the bike. Am sure that would be of great help to the newer owners.

Here is what i have done so far:

9 - 100 kms: (at the time of delivery the odo showed 9)
* Kept the speed below 50 kmph religiously
* Avoided hard acceleration (barring a few very short bursts, but always under 50kmph)
* maintained running on a slightly higher rpm w.r.t various gears, so as to avoid engine knocking.
* never ran for more than 30 mins without a break.

100-513 kms: (first service)

* Always tried to keep the speed below 60 kmph. (may be 65kmph a few times, but for very short time - like 10-15 seconds)
* Relatively hard accelerations on a few occasions, downshifting quickly.
* Running on a slightly higher rpm w.r.t various gears, so as to avoid engine knocking.

513 - 1000 kms:
* Tried and kept the speed under 65kmph (with occasional short bursts of upto 70 /80 )
* Moderately hard acceleration between 0-60, with quick down-shifts.

1000kms - present (1188kms)

* Tried not to exceed speed of 70kmph, but have have touched 80-90 on a few occasions, for short duration.
* Occasionally hard acceleration between 0-60, with quick down-shifts.
* Always let the bike cool after approximately 30 mins of riding.
* Switch-off the engine at signals to support cooling.

approximate gear shifts w.r.t. speed
* 1st gear - 0-15 kmph
* 2nd gear -15-25 kmph
* 3rd gear - 25-40 kmph
* 4th gear - 40-55 kmph
* 5th gear - 55+ kmph

let me know if its ok, or i need to make some amendments.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 15:27   #342
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Hi Randhawa - i have been following this post with great interest, and i must say with some amount of trepidation as well. I got my C500 from HSR Motors in Bangalore on the 5th of March and so far my experience has been fairly satisfactory. I have faced couple of issues - the most irritating one being the self-starter not working on the first go on many occassions (specially if i stop at a signal after running for a while and try to start again after the sensor indicator goes off).

However, your posts relating to absence of the O2 sensor and resulting rich fuel mixture, excessive combustion and potential damage to the engine have me quite scared. Unfortunately i am not a very techical person and did not quite follow what happened subsequently, so can you clarify if you found a way to maintain the appropriate fuel mix and keep the combustion under control to prevent engine damage? Or is this something you are simply living with? Apologies if i am making a mountain out of a mole-hill here, but this issue stood out as the most alarming to me. Please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood the issue here.


I will be getting my second service done in the coming week or so and will specifically ask to see the state of the spark plugs to understand if I am facing the same problem. On many occassions i noticed that despite starting the bike with the choke on for 20-30 secs (as recommended by HSR), and running it for few kilometers the engine has a tendency to switch-off on low revs (such as in slow moving traffic). Always seemed to me that the engine has not heated up properly, but now i am wondering if the issue is something else altogether.


I have also noticed another thing about my bike and i don't know if this is a problem really. Many times when i brake strongly from a fairly high speed of around 70-80 (e.g. if i notice a road hump at close range), the engine cuts-off despite keeping the clutch fully depressed. I don't know if this is normal behaviour but does not seem that way to me. Any insights would help.Thanks!
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Old 3rd June 2010, 16:58   #343
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@ hexanerax:

Quote:
Also included are pictures of The carbon coated ( not fouled ) Bosch Fusion Platinum plug.
Are you using these plugs on the C5? If yes, could you please share the advantages of this plug over the stock one, the heat rating and the cost?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 18:50   #344
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@Nasir- Your running in is fine just avoid hard acceleration till 2k.

@AXG- Welcome to Team-Bhp and C5 gang comrade

Now first of all I would like to know how long or short your rides on your bike are. If you are doing trips less then 10km then you are not giving enough time for the plugs to get cleaned up which leads to a bit excess carbon. Which helps your bike not to start on first go at times.

Few things can cause this.
Incorrect idle setup
Incorrect plug clearance
Too much carbon deposit on plugs
Overheating

By going through what small issues you are facing, I can clearly say the reasons for that.

Clean the plugs and get the gap adjusted. That should cure your starting issue.
The surge you are facing is due to the incorrect idle setup. Get that sorted and you will get rid of the cutting out problem in traffic and also get the accelerator cable adjusted.

I can assure you, there is not much can go wrong on C5. As much as this bike looks complicated, in reality it's really simple in functionality and easy to sort out once you know it inside out.


About the rich mixture issue you want to know. My answer is No. I have not found any way to adjust the mixture. All what can be done is to swap the stock ECU with the Export version alongside the O2 sensor and wiring. I have inquired about the prices and part no for these and you can have them under 20K if you have someone living abroad where RE sells C5. Thats the closest option I have come across.


I have gone through enough to say that the rich mixture issue is not too harmful to the engine. Although it has negatives and unfortunately we will have to live with it until some tuner comes up with a fix for that or RE itself provides us with some solution and now I am quite sure that they will not.

Con's of excess carbon due to incomplete combustion or rich mixture
Fouling of plugs
Lower mileage
Starting trouble
Heating issues
Poor pickup

I am sharing some details about the plugs which was provided by RE to get rid of the excessive carbon. To be honest it did helped to some extent that the electrodes started appearing clean on new plugs.

But now I am back using the plugs which came with the bike as its hot enough or the engine is running lean enough to clean the plugs. I'll switch back to the plugs provided by RE during winters which have higher heat rating compared to stock ones.

You can ask your dealer to provide the new plugs to you if he can. I dont know if the RE has all ready changed the plugs on later bikes so if you can check the no's on the plug and share it with us would be nice.


Stock OEM plugs
Bosch Super R6
WR7DDC 4, UR5DC990


Plugs with higher heat range- (Used in winters)
Bosch Super R6
WQR8DC 986, UR6DC 992
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Old 4th June 2010, 11:38   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
@Nasir- Your running in is fine just avoid hard acceleration till 2k.

@AXG- Welcome to Team-Bhp and C5 gang comrade
Thanks Randhawa. Good to be here!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Now first of all I would like to know how long or short your rides on your bike are. If you are doing trips less then 10km then you are not giving enough time for the plugs to get cleaned up which leads to a bit excess carbon. Which helps your bike not to start on first go at times.
I started off with not so long rides. Around 12-15 kms (depending on the route) to my office and back in the evening. But, off late i have been using the bike on weekends only and doing at least 90-100 km runs. The starting problem still persists. Today, decided to bring the C5 to work and I had to press the electric start at least 4 times before the engine caught on. Then again it refused to start at the petrol pump in the first attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Few things can cause this.
Incorrect idle setup
Incorrect plug clearance
Too much carbon deposit on plugs
Overheating
Do you mean overheating of the engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
By going through what small issues you are facing, I can clearly say the reasons for that.

Clean the plugs and get the gap adjusted. That should cure your starting issue.
The surge you are facing is due to the incorrect idle setup. Get that sorted and you will get rid of the cutting out problem in traffic and also get the accelerator cable adjusted.
Thanks, i am going to ask the HSR service guys to do all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
I can assure you, there is not much can go wrong on C5.
That is quite reassuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
As much as this bike looks complicated, in reality it's really simple in functionality and easy to sort out once you know it inside out.


About the rich mixture issue you want to know. My answer is No. I have not found any way to adjust the mixture. All what can be done is to swap the stock ECU with the Export version alongside the O2 sensor and wiring. I have inquired about the prices and part no for these and you can have them under 20K if you have someone living abroad where RE sells C5. Thats the closest option I have come across.
That's a very difficult option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
I have gone through enough to say that the rich mixture issue is not too harmful to the engine. Although it has negatives and unfortunately we will have to live with it until some tuner comes up with a fix for that or RE itself provides us with some solution and now I am quite sure that they will not.
My concern is that a RE is meant to be a lifelong possession that i may want to pass down to my children and they may want to pass it down to their children after that. If the engine is under assault because a missing O2 sensor, then i very much doubt the bike will last that long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Con's of excess carbon due to incomplete combustion or rich mixture
Fouling of plugs
Lower mileage
Starting trouble
Heating issues
Poor pickup
I get crappy mileage. I barely get 23-25km out of 10 litres of fuel even on complete highway travel. I also have starting issues. Pickup seems fine however, but that may get to be a problem in the future. I have only done 1600 km so far. Seems like my bike has certainly started showing signs of excess carbon related issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
I am sharing some details about the plugs which was provided by RE to get rid of the excessive carbon. To be honest it did helped to some extent that the electrodes started appearing clean on new plugs.
Are you saying that the plugs can help in ensuring optimum combustion and getting rid of excess carbon? How is that? Sorry, i am not very technically inclined!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
But now I am back using the plugs which came with the bike as its hot enough or the engine is running lean enough to clean the plugs. I'll switch back to the plugs provided by RE during winters which have higher heat rating compared to stock ones.

You can ask your dealer to provide the new plugs to you if he can. I dont know if the RE has all ready changed the plugs on later bikes so if you can check the no's on the plug and share it with us would be nice.


Stock OEM plugs
Bosch Super R6
WR7DDC 4, UR5DC990


Plugs with higher heat range- (Used in winters)
Bosch Super R6
WQR8DC 986, UR6DC 992
I will have to check this out at the service. Will surely get back to you on this one. Hope to have the C5 serviced this coming week.
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