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Old 1st November 2010, 02:39   #811
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@hexanerax- Good to know at least we make you laugh. Try getting a 110/90/18 MRF tyre and let me know. If you can get some tyres in your city does not represents the availability all over India.

"Those who have problems with the ignition key switch , that is more a vendor issue than a RE fault". "Sure a new bike should not have these issues and RE is at fault for not clearing up the problems quickly but when one's safety is at stake , one better do something ASAP"

Please make up your mind to whom you want to put the blame on, RE or the vendor.

You surely know how to make people laugh. I think with your understanding I should be chasing each and every faulty part vendor for RE across India but dare not to blame RE for that. We all have payed to RE and not directly to vendors.


It revs to only 5000 + RPM but that 1952 engine was not designed to go faster and the UCE 500 follows that limit.

I could break into a long lecture on the fact that this engine is a long stroke single and that maximum piston speeds ( limited by metallurgy ) would be exceeded if we tried to push the rpm to 9000 ( which a short stroke can do ) and so on but i guess those arguments would neither be understood or appreciated by everyone.


Are you even aware of the fact that CI bullets can be made(already done) to rev till 9000rpm and so can a UCE engine without making the parts from titanium or some high tech metal?

Going by the history of your riding experience on bulls, I am assuming you know a lot about bulls. I would appreciate a lecture by you on why a UCE engine has a piston slap/rocking which is not the case in older CI bulls and whom should we blame for that, RE or the vendor?
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Old 1st November 2010, 10:37   #812
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@Randhawa

Sorry to hear about your mishaps - with the chain sprockets, Airfilter lock etc. Each one of your Adventures makes me shiver - when is it going to happen to me ?

About the rear tyre - RE planning to change it to 19" due to problems at MRF - I also dont agree with it fully. I mean its better and far easier to find another tyre manufacturer who can supply the 18" than going in for lot of re-engineering. If I am right, A change to 19" rear means entire handling characteristics will change including the torque, speed and gear ratios and to even out, this will require minimum a change of sprocket ? not to mention redesigning the rear mudguard to accommodate the bigger size without hitting the roof and spoiling the brake light wiring ?

If RE is going for 19" rear tyre upgrade, It will be due to Re-engineering the Classic as part of their own product upgrade/improvement strategy and not due to supply shortage from MRF.

regards
san
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Old 1st November 2010, 11:08   #813
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@San- In this entire thread I have never mentioned any rumour till now and rumours are at its best just mere speculation without any truth. Just take it with a pinch of salt as I did hence I said I heard a rumour. Although it came from an RE official whose credentials are still in doubt.



I also agree that upgrade to 19 rear does not sound sensible from either side. What I am not sure is the 19 upgrade in front if thats a permanent one on C5 as the RE website has reverted back to old specifications and the new lot of C5 came with the same old stuff. Now this is what makes me curious to know what RE is playing about.
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Old 1st November 2010, 16:59   #814
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Hi , Sorry for the post which mixed up the quoted message with my comments. Here is a repost

Good to know at least we make you laugh. Try getting a 110/90/18 MRF tyre and let me know. If you can get some tyres in your city does not represents the availability all over India.

I am currently in Dehradun , A small city by any standards with half a dozen tire shops catering to motorcycle tires.I found 4 brands in a variety of sizes. If you can't find any dealer willing to order one for you , i could help in procuring and sending you a tire if you want.

Those who have problems with the ignition key switch , that is more a vendor issue than a RE fault". "Sure a new bike should not have these issues and RE is at fault for not clearing up the problems quickly but when one's safety is at stake , one better do something ASAP

Please make up your mind to whom you want to put the blame on, RE or the vendor.

The vendor for a poor design , RE for not taking action quickly. I really don't think you could get an audience with a Minda engineer for what is essentially a Rs 100 component. But to have the bike die on an overtaking move and the consequences of that , I prefer to do something fast even if it means not riding till that issue is sorted out.

You surely know how to make people laugh. I think with your understanding I should be chasing each and every faulty part vendor for RE across India but dare not to blame RE for that. We all have payed to RE and not directly to vendors.

I agree. That is why i cited RE at fault for not resolving these issues quickly.

It revs to only 5000 + RPM but that 1952 engine was not designed to go faster and the UCE 500 follows that limit.

I could break into a long lecture on the fact that this engine is a long stroke single and that maximum piston speeds ( limited by metallurgy ) would be exceeded if we tried to push the rpm to 9000 ( which a short stroke can do ) and so on but i guess those arguments would neither be understood or appreciated by everyone.



Are you even aware of the fact that CI bullets can be made(already done) to rev till 9000rpm and so can a UCE engine without making the parts from titanium or some high tech metal?


Yes. They do that by reducing the stroke length with a smaller crank dia and a shorter connecting rod, changing the swept volume of the engine. In essence , the whole power delivery characteristics and 'feel' of the engine will change. Just for the record , do you have a link to the 9000 RPM CI engine with regular metallurgy in the piston , connecting rod that you mentioned in your post? Please do post the link with some details . Let us not rely upon rumors and hearsay and have some hard facts backed up by math. Meanwhile , i would refer you to
Mean piston speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
( average piston speed , the peak would be much higher given the oscillating movement of the piston )
For the Classic with a 90mm stroke , this works out to
MeanPistonSpeed = 2 * 90/1000 * 5000 / 60
= 15 M/sec for the standard setup which is about perfect in the interests of wear and load.

For a Pulsar 220 , 62.4 mm stroke
= 2*62.4/1000 * 9000/60
= 18.72 M/sec

With the same numbers for 9000( quoted) RPM, 90 mm stroke ,
= 2* 90/1000 * 9000/60
=27m/sec ( insane)
Which is what F1 and MotoGP engines do.

not realistic unless one changes the stroke length( which makes the engine different from an enfield CI 500 or UCE 350 ). The longer the stroke , the greater the peak velocity , which makes the enfield engines pretty good in terms of their metallurgy and performance.
Also , the connecting rod is under severe stress and the RPM boost cannot come without substantial improvement in the quality and metallurgy of the con rod , crank pin , gudgeon pin and bearings.

Standard metallurgy? Nah

For those interested in the technicalities of piston speeds and metallurgy and the issues involved in boosting power output of the Bullet Engine, please read

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gHPOTFC...s%20Discussion

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oI_OTF-...20Mach%20Index

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oI_OTE0...all%20together.

Going by the history of your riding experience on bulls, I am assuming you know a lot about bulls. I would appreciate a lecture by you on why a UCE engine has a piston slap/rocking which is not the case in older CI bulls and whom should we blame for that, RE or the vendor?

Piston slap is not a problem of design but one of manufacture and after that , running in. No engine has a piston slap rating. The designers decide what is an acceptable fit for the piston in the bore and machine to that tolerance( subject to economic constraints).The service shop manual has the details for that. When the bike is run in , this tolerance changes and can become larger than is optimum , causing the piston to rock from side to side , this is called piston slap. Older bullets also have similar issues if not run in properly. To blame the company or the vendor is pointless since they do not control the run in process , We , the riders do that and if your bore is worn to the extent of serious piston slap , you need to change the bore kit.
Picasa Web Albums - Naren N - Classic 500 S...
Attached are the relevant pages from the Classic 500 service manual. You can check out the parameters and tolerances on your machine . If you have access to another new bike , you could check that one out too to make sure that the company and vendor are not to blame and the UCE 500 does not come with piston slap built in. Piston slap does make the engine noisy and increases wear on the piston skirt and bore but that is a compromise between too tight and too loose and the riding style determines the best fit. The manufacturer can only try to find a balance between the two extremes for a given price. Also , the highly tuned , high rpm enfield engines have torque and power curves that are less suited for general everyday running and also impose huge stresses on the clutch and transmission system.

Regards
Naren

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Old 1st November 2010, 18:30   #815
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@ Randhawa.Thanks for your support.Sorry for the late reply.I did the 1st 500 kms servicing but did not feel any difference.The bike is as before.I will go home and give u an update on the hissing sound problem.Also there are stains on the engine(chrome plated part) which came with the bike(with regards from RE chennai)The mechanic at the workshop told me that to remove the stains i will have to give that part for buffing.Do you have any better solution?The stains wont go by washing.Thanks again.

Last edited by .anshuman : 1st November 2010 at 20:43. Reason: Please do not quote an entire large post, it causes inconvenience to small screen and mobile users. Thanks
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Old 1st November 2010, 19:49   #816
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Wow wow Piston slap, metallurgy, mean piston speed, Hot fight going on..

By the way Naren, where did you get that Service manual - Can I have a copy please ?

regards
san
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Old 1st November 2010, 20:11   #817
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@ naren:

Holy! thats a lot of information to grasp and much of it went over my head at the first go. Will revisit the links and try to get a better understanding.Thanks for sharing.

My technical knowledge of metals/metallurgy etc is very naive and except for a few gurus in the likes of randhawa and yourself, most of us USERS have very limited knowledge of engine kinetics/ mechanics/ schematics/ etc etc. Only thing we have in common is some soft connection with RE, which is keeping us together. We crib abour RE, because "crying baby gets the milk". if we stop cribbing, they will keep making/outsourcing sad quality parts.

I believe that the point which you are trying to make is that a C5 engine is near perfect for what it is intended to be/do. Technically it may be, but we can not look at a bike as separate entities, but as a whole. I might have a powerful and healthy heart, but if my lungs fail, i die anyways.

When we see a problem with the bike, we may not have the knowledge base of analyzing the issue from hard-core techincal point as to why, how, where, when, but, endup blaming RE for giving us a product which simple put is NOT reliable. which i think is justified.
I mean when we travel by AIR, the aircraft manufacturer cant really expect us to know all the technicals about the aircraft. GE cant say that the engine which we desgined was perfect, but the Boeing's fuselage was faulty leading to the crash. a crash is a crash.

Would like to share my opinion/experience on a few issues that you have touched in your previous posts.

Quote:
Those who have problems with the ignition key switch , that is more a vendor issue than a RE fault. Minda makes that part ( which they also do for numerous bikes cited in the posts including the electra and the older CI bikes ). A simple fix is to use a high quality automotive relay ( of the correct rating) to switch the main DC supply, activated by the key-switch. A mosfet would be even better. A cheap fix is to buy a separate key switch for a hundred bucks or so and fit it to the bike.
why do we always have to settle for a 'FIX'. Why cant we demand products which are of higher quality. If a large percentage of people are having problems with the ignition key switch, there is got to be some issue with that part. And its not like RE's ignition switch issue is new. When i bought my machismo, in about a year, the ignition switch conked-off and had to be replaced. And i am still carrying two keys for a single bike. A lot of my friends / riding group members have had their ignition switch replaced. If the problem is so visible, why RE did nothing to improve the switch quality on the newer models, likes classics??

Quote:
I read a post about how the bike has a poor electrical system. Happens that a bike took a fall, blew fuses ( that the rider replaced ) started , ran and then proceeded to a meltdown of the harness. Fuses are meant to protect the wiring from melting down. Blow one fuse and you should not replace it without checking for shorts. Specially if the bike has fallen.
THATS ME!!

The bike did not fall hard. it just toppled on the side, when a safari guy kissed my bikes butt. Nothing major. Now, a two wheeler has all the changes in the world of toppling on the side. I am sure we all have gone through atlest a single topple in our biking history. The point is a new bike, just under 6 months old, topples once on its side, and we have the entire electrical blown and melted. Now thats something not acceptable. I do agree with your point of analysis, the bike after the fall, which we did.
let me give a little detailed view of what exactly happened on that day.

" i was stationary on the road waiting for my turn, when a tata safari, misjudged the turning radius and slightly touched mike bikes back. I was caught unaware, the bike sligtly moved forward, and toppled on the right side. It happened during a group ride. we were a group of 20 bullets of various eras, and some of the riders were very experienced having good knowledge of older enfields. coming back to the story, after the topple, we lifted the bike upright, tried starting. MIL did not glow. i remembered reading something about the cutoff time, etc, so we all went to a chai shop close by to take a break. after about 15-20 mins break, when i tried starting the bike, still MIL did not glow. Next suspect being the FUSE, i checked and found one fluse blown. i replaced the fuse, did a visual inspection of the bike to see if any wires etc had come loose, but found none. i ALSO looked under the rear mudguard, but all seemed to be in place. anyhow, bike started after replacing the fuse, and after riding for about 5-7 kms, the engine died. there was faint burning smell of rubber, and after inspection, the wiring harness were found to be melted. it was right in the middle of nowhere, and bangalore was 40 kms away. sunlight was fading. found an open back auto and managed to tow the vehicle to bangalore.

Please tell me as to where i went wrong, what steps i missed, and what i ideally should have done to check the shorts?

this is what RE says on its website:

For those who want it all. The power, the fuel efficiency, the reliability and simple, yet drop dead gorgeous classic styling. The classic turns heads not because it wants to but because it canít help it.


They do mention RELIABILITY, which in my past 6months experience with the classic, is totally missing.

Quote:
I have run my classic for 10000 Km, Been to Leh and back on the C5 and done numerous long road trips in appalling weather and conditions. Never had major issues. Sure I've spent some money on the bike , had my rear shock absorbers changed under warranty and ditto for a chain set. None of that changes my opinion about the bike which i think is a very decent machine.
I guess your C5 is a manufacturing defect. (not sure how else to term this, as most of the C5s i have come across have shown deep signs of quality/ reliability issues).

Quote:
They tried to duplicate a 1950's model with some modern tech thrown in to satisfy the regulations.
No. No. Its just the aesthetics of the bike which is inspired from the clipper or G2. Everything was re-modelled / re-engineered.
Quote:
A DOHC is efficient but the 1950 RE G2 was a pushrod design. It revs to only 5000 + RPM but that 1952 engine was not designed to go faster and the UCE 500 follows that limit.
the G2 never had lots of other technical stuff which the C5 has, like Fi, ECU, disks, etc, so while conceptualizing the C5, when they could make all the changes, they could make it go a bit fast as well.

the RE site also says " you will appreciate the beat not just for the music it creates but also for the muted feeling of strength and power that it signifies "

i am not too sure of the above.In my personal opinion, based on the experience so far with C5, i would say that RE is compromised a lot of quality and reliability. A vendor will give you exactly what you want. we pay peanuts, we get monkeys. RE can very-well put a quality check on the parts being outsourced. If the part goes on the RE bike, its REs responsibility.

I would not have minded paying 1.6 lakhs instead of 1.5, for better and efficient parts.

we still see the 1960s bulls running on the road, only time will tell is there are any running C5s 50 yrs down the line.
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Old 1st November 2010, 20:43   #818
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Can you try getting the MRF 90/90/19 in your city? I might try the bigger size to see if makes it behave any better.

Oh dear, I have to edit the figures of max rpm achieved on a CI bull. Its 6200rpm(not 9k) and the set up was done by Joe Mondello, here is a video ACE Fireball 535 Royal Enfield High Performance Kit.

Anyway here is what gurus have to say about getting some power out of a bull.

Taken from enfieldmotorcycles.com and written by member Ace Cafe.

What is "power"?
In an engine, "power" is basically divided into two aspects.
These are "torque" and "horsepower".
Strictly speaking, "torque is the "torsional force" or rotating force around the center axis of the crankshaft. Just like if you put a torque wrench on the crankshaft nut, and used the leverage of the torque wrench to turn the engine.
Horsepower is the work done by the torque, including time, which is usually described by rpms. And horsepower is a mathematical function of torque and rpm, specifically torque x rpm, divided by 5252(a constant).
Looking at this function, we can see that since the dividend in the equation is 5252, then torque will always be higher than horsepower up until 5252 rpm, and horsepower can then go higher than torque above 5252 rpm.
So, in our Bullets, it's easy to see that torque is the main aspect of power production that we will use in our daily riding. We cannot use rpms that are much higher than 5252, because of the strength limitations of the parts in the bottom-end of our engine. However, we can go a little above that, and usually 5500-6000 rpms would be considered the safe maximum limit for us.
And given this function of torque and horsepower, we can now address power production with these things in mind.

How do we increase torque?
Torque in an engine is the result of 2 things primarily. Those things are the leverage exerted on the crankshaft, and force exerted on the piston.
The leverage exerted on the crankshaft is dictated by the stroke length in our engine design. Specifically, it is the distance from the centerline of the crank, to the centerline of the crankpin. This distance is 45mm. But, you say that our stroke is 90mm? Yes it is. The 45mm goes up and down around the centerline, so the distance of 45mm is multiplied by 2 to get total stroke. But the actual distance involved for torque production is 45mm, because that is the distance of the crankpin from the crank center. This leverage is increased with longer stroke, and decreased with shorter stroke. It is fixed by the engine design, unless you change to a stroker crank.
The force exerted on the piston is the combination of the combustion pressure in the chamber, times the area of the piston crown. So you can increase this number by enlarging the bore/piston size, or increasing the compression pressure, or both.
And this is commonly done with a big-bore kit and high compression piston.

Anytime you increase torque, you automatically increase horsepower, due the the nature of the mathematical function. But only at the points in the rpm range where that torque has been raised. It is entirely possible to gain torque in one part of the rpm band, and lose some in another part of the rpm band. So we want it to be broad enough in the torque curve, to provide good useful riding results. Some racing engines make power only in the highest rpms, and are very poor at low or midrange rpms. Conversely, some other engines pull like a tractor at low rpms, and can't reach high rpms very well at all. It's all part of how the engine designer picked the parts for the application.

Horsepower on the other hand, always follows torque. You can't have hp without torque. BUT, there is a special circumstance, where breathing efficiency allows torque to drop slightly, and the rpms can still cause horsepower to increase, as long as the engine can continue to pull in sufficient air/fuel mixture to increase rpms.

The "knee" in this curve is known as "peak torque rpm". It is the point where the engine is operating most efficiently for torque production. Everything is coming together just right at this rpm. As we accelerate from idle to peak torque rpm, the torque continuously increases until we reach peak torque rpm. Then it may hold on to the peak torque figure for a while, or it may begin to drop off at higher rpms. Most times it will slowly decrease for about 1000-1500 rpms, and then drop off precipitously when breathing capacity reaches the limit. Even during the decreasing slope of the torque, engine rpm can increase and thus still produce higher and higher hp, until the breathing capacity of the engine is reached, and this is "peak horsepower". The longer the engine can provide breathing capacity to rev higher, the longer the area from peak torque to peak hp will become.
So, there you have your 2 curves in power production of the engine, with the critical rpms for peak torque and peak hp. The rpms between the peak torque rpm and the peak hp rpm is commonly known as the "max power range".

How does the engine continue to make more power after it reaches the torque peak? Why doesn't it just stop there, if it has passed the place of best efficiency?
It's because the engine has capacity to breathe in more air/fuel mixture, at a rate which can be multiplied by rpms, even after max efficiency(peak torque) is passed. And it can continue to do this as the torque slowly declines, until that breathing capacity is limited enough to not be able to overcome the torque decline any more.
So, what we'd like to do is reach a high peak torque figure, and hold onto it as long as we can while the rpms rise further. And we'd like to place this range within the ability of our engine's structural integrity, so that we can access it without blowing the crank or rod. And in our case, this might be a torque peak of 4000 rpm and a hp peak of 5500 rpm, or maybe even a torque peak of 4500 rpm and a hp peak of 6000 rpm. The latter is pretty high, and probably reserved for a sport rider who likes to push the limits.

What can we do to help raise torque, keep a broad and useful curve, and increase hp too?
Well, we are pretty much limited in mechanical leverage by the stroke, unless we get a stroker crank. So that's about set in stone.
But we can get a big-bore kit and hi-compression piston pretty easily, and that can help out all thru the entire range.
But, those are only parts of what we can do.

How can we go further?
We can increase the breathing capacity of the intake and exhaust systems, and also increase the breathing capacity of the cylinder head. We know that a somewhat bigger carb, and a free-flow air filter can help, and many of us have done that. So does removing the very obstructed exhaust system, and replacing it with one that can let the gases out of the engine with less impediment.
This seems to make sense, right? We can bring more air/fuel mixture in, and get the exhaust gases out, better. And it works. To a point.

What is this "point" of which I speak?
Remember a few paragraphs back, when I mentioned that it's possible to gain torque or hp in one rpm range, and lose it in another. That is the issue that I'm referring to.
It's possible to set up the engine breathing so that it is very big, and flows alot at higher rpms, but this makes it flow slow and lazy at lower rpms. And that means that at lower rpms, not alot of air/fuel mixture is getting in, because of slow lazy flow that was created by making it all big enough to flow at much higher rpms, and that's what makes racing engines do poorly on the street. Conversely, if we make the breathing small enough to give us really high flow speeds at lower rpms, giving us great low-rpm torque, our ports(or carb or manifolds) can't flow enough mixture at the higher rpms to develop the power at the high rpms. So, for street work, we need a balance.

What is the "balance"?
The balance is to have breathing which can be fast enough to give good flow and good torque down low, and still be able to breathe well enough to allow the engine to access the high rpms. This means not going too far in either direction. Not too small, and not too large. So, we don't want an overly large carburetor, or overly large intake manifold, or over large ports. Nor do we want them too small.
We want it to be like "Goldilocks". Just right!
So, we select are carburetor size, manifold size and port size, so that we are good for our intended range of use, which is about 2000-6000rpms. It does us no good to set up the engine to do 9000rpm. We'll never get there without blowing up, and it will just wreck our low-speed running.
Happily, our India-made head has an intake port which is very nearly sufficient for our highest rpms, and doesn't really need enlargement. But, the shape of the port is poor, and while it may be able to pass enough air, it doesn't do it with good velocity. So what we need in our India-made intake port is improved shape, and not necessarily bigger size. The size"could be" bigger, IF the shape is improved sufficiently to get good velocities with that bigger size. That's not easy to do, but with the poor shape that we have in there, it could be possible, IF you really know what you are doing.
The same goes with the carb and manifold. If the carb is too big, then it just slows everything down, and you can't get the overall flow you need because velocity suffers. So, putting a big 38mm carb on our stock ports isn't going to help us. But, going bigger than the 28mm carb might certainly help us, because our ports are 32mm, and that makes the carb a restriction.
The whole idea is to get more air/fuel mixture in, which means sufficient volume, AND sufficient velocity, which combine to get most mixture in during the time the valve is open. And do it well enough at all our rpm ranges, so that we don't suffer weak spots in our riding range.
The more mixture that enters the engine at any given rpm, the more the combustion pressure is going to be exerted on the piston crown, and the more torque is going to result. So, it stands to reason that we want to get as much in as we can, at all the rpms that we plan to ride. Since this increases torque, it also increases horsepower, and everybody's happy.

So, in summation, we must strive to modify the engine within the expected range of use(rpms) to provide the best breathing possible in the bulk of that rpm range, and use that to produce more force exerted on the piston. And we can combine that with a piston that "squeezes" that mixture with more compression, to improve the result. And we can use a slightly bigger piston to give more area for that pressure to work on.



Coming back to the C5 story.

I have taken enough measurements of every single part of a stock motor internals to a used one, starting with cylinder bore clearance, ring to groove clearance, piston to bore clearance, piston ring end gaps, piston pin dia, big end axial play, small end bore dia, crankshaft run out and its still going on. Will conclude it shortly.

Actually RE is aware of it and their R&D is working on it. In that case I don't think running in has much share in this issue but possibly to do with metallurgy. Question is which part, barrel, ring or the piston. If riding under 100 for around 5k is not sufficient enough to do running in on UCE then there is something else to point out.




Now coming back to our C5 and before I even start on piston slap and who should I blame for that. Just make a audio recording(close to your engine) of your engine running from 0 to 60 in all gears and listen to it or perhaps post it on here. As you being a experienced bulleteer, you would know better of running in procedure and if you hear the same noise on yours then you should help me to dig in further into this.
So we could find a fix and move on.

@Stnair- Naren has a official soft copy of the manual which you can get only if you are working for RE or very close to someone working for RE.
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Old 1st November 2010, 21:06   #819
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[/quote]@Stnair- Naren has a official soft copy of the manual which you can get only if you are working for RE or very close to someone working for RE.[/quote]

Hi,
I have been following Ace and his research for a while now and a plan is underway to import the fireball for installation on my brother's L 535.
There is a fair amount of rattle in my engine too but considering that i rode hard from day one , the noise is justified i guess. My friend who ran in his bike very gently has a machine that has no piston slap or other noise at all. Again that was one of the first bikes delivered in dehradun , could be an odd one out. The metallurgy could be far better than they have managed , That i will accept. I will also accept that having ridden enfields for over 15 years now, i have learned to accept the idiosyncrasies of the bikes and fix them where i can. I have access to an extensive mech, electronic and metal workshop with all manner of power tools so i can rig up fixes and carry on. The local dealer here is very accommodating and mods that are frowned upon by other dealers are ok with him. Being a long time customer also helps. Having rebuilt the L 535 and a 350 CI at home , i can assure you that the Classic has a far more modern design with respect to the piston and connecting rod. As for the service manual , I got it from a friend who works at a dealership.

will upload it and post a link to the manual soon. Just PM me for the link.

I only hope that the people who are facing major issues with the bikes get some support from the Company before someone has a major problem with safety at risk.

Regards
Naren.

Last edited by hexanerax : 1st November 2010 at 21:23.
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Old 1st November 2010, 23:51   #820
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@Naren- Even though you rode your bike hard from beginning and you do have some rattle but that can be sorted out to some extent.

I have some suggestions for you with my tried and tested method to sort out the rattle. If you get the time then do try it out and let us know if it helped.

On our UCE engine the cams are eccentric and the cam sleeves have to be adjusted accordingly. (Pg 141 explains it all). The sleeves have to be adjusted periodically although there is no set time frame for maintenance. If they are not set right or not corrected time to time, they wear out resulting in play which results in a bit of noise.

If the cams are fine with no excess wear from inside then you can just change the sleeves if worn or just adjust them. It will improve the pickup and reduce noise to a large extent.

Open up the LH side cover and check for proper working of the chain tensioner. I'll be on my third chain tensioner soon(improvising at the moment). If its gone then obviously get it changed.

Now if you have the torque wrench then use it to tighten up the bolt to 48Nm. I am not assuming it will be loose but it needs to be tightened a bit and reduces unwanted rattle to great extent.

With regards to our crank and con rod, we have a identical crank to AVL. Even the crank pin bearing is the same. So not much difference is there but quite agree that its a far better built up. Barrel gets my high rating as RE has used the best honing process around "Plateau honing". Piston is also good but I am not sure if its entirely appropriate to use the particular design on our C5. Why? It has a shorter skirt and this kind of design is more appropriate for high revving engines and our UCE long stroker isn't one.

For piston slap to occur, there are few factors contributing to the effect.
Piston expanding more then the barrel when it overheats on sudden acceleration with cold engine.
Short skirt piston rocks more then the longer skirt pistons.
Too much con rod axial play.
Worn out oil rings.

So its not just a worn out barrel and if I had a worn out barrel then certainly I would not be making 140+Psi on a cold engine.

Once I am done with my findings, I'll share it on here so you are most welcome to give your opinion.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 00:49   #821
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@ Randhawa-
Thanks for the pointers. Looks like I'm going to be busy over the festive break.

Regards
Naren
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Old 2nd November 2010, 09:27   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
I also agree that upgrade to 19 rear does not sound sensible from either side. What I am not sure is the 19 upgrade in front if thats a permanent one on C5 as the RE website has reverted back to old specifications and the new lot of C5 came with the same old stuff. Now this is what makes me curious to know what RE is playing about.
You mean RE has reverted back to 18" front for C5 ? 19" upgrade (or rather downgrade as per handling) made sense as almost all other RE models are having 19" front and it means standardization of parts and economies of scale etc. It also meant faster delivery to Customers as all cycle parts will be similar between C5 and C350.

regards
san
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Old 2nd November 2010, 20:56   #823
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Hey guys,

Some update:

Got goldie made - glass wool type. installed on the bike, and it sounds just about what i wanted. Its not too loud, but louder than upswept. The thump is not hollow (like beating an empty can) but much bassier now.


NEED URGENT INPUTS ON THE FOLLOWING:

This coming friday, i am off on my first long ride on the C5. would be covering about 2000 kms in about 6 days. (south india).

I am planning to do this ride with the goldie on the bike. I have already installed the K&N 0090, to compensate for the free flow nature. Also, am using NGK plug as primary.

I would be riding approx 250 kms a day, doing about 80-90 constantly on the highway.

MY Doubt is, can i do the above with the goldie on the C5? are there any chances of valve damage? Anything else which i should keep in mind?

Do share your opinion.


ALSO, today at mechanics place, the guy took the bike for a spin to test the goldie, came back and said that the front forks appear to be loose. This is something which i am worried about? how do i check if there is any issue with the front forks? to me it seems fine. any lights on this would be helpful.

Following is an illustration of the modified goldie.
Attached Thumbnails
The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-goldie-01.jpg  

The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-goldie-02.jpg  

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Old 2nd November 2010, 21:31   #824
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Just back from a 4 day trip.

Summary:

Duration: 4 days
Kms covered: 800 kms
Route: Bangalore-Belur-Chikmagalur-Horanadu-Kemmannagundi-Bangalore
Mileage: Around 35 kmpl!!
Road conditions: Every type. Good, bad and ugly.
Issues: Speedometer stopped working. Not the cable fault but the speedometer unit has conked off. (Second time in my case!) and a flat Tyre ONLY!!!

Overall impressions: C5 performed impeccably . I did not face even a single issue in the whole journey except for a flat tyre which is not C5 specific anyway.
Exhaust: After changing to the short bottle, the sound is not as good as what I expected it to be. However there is a slight increase in the pickup. I changed to a Short bottle silencer; also known as Punjab Silencer I guess..but could not get the Laxmi Udyog one. This one I have now is a MMW
(Madras Motor Works???? )

Tyres: I changed to michellin M45 sometime back. That was of no great help to avoid the flat tyre( that too a rear one ). Read somewhere in some forum that some C5 owner with M45 found it to be good to ride even after a puncture. Though the amount of incision etc is very subjective; in my case it was a very small nail causing the damage. No big deal because there was a puncture shop close by. This helped since we did not have any kit with us to handle this.
The grip on the tyres is very good on wet/dry/bad/no roads.

Seat: I am still on the stock seats. For my physical profile (slim, 74kg), this seat is just fine. No soreness even after 200 kms rides. Found a sweet spot which works well for me. Though a little bit of additional back lower back support with an extra cushion helps.

Just crossed 3k kms on the odo so couldn't test the max speed. Was in the 70 range max.

Help/Suggestions:
@All: Any suggestion on the most compact flat tyre repair kit for REs? Or do I need to buy every thing separately.

@All: Has anyone here done some sort of a study on the exhaust to understand where the Bass of the sound comes from? My problem is that the short bottle silencer gives more volume that necessary and lesser bass than expected. I want the volume to come down and the bass to go up. Any help on this matter? Mu understanding is that adding a filter (glass-wool muffler) would reduce both the volume and bass.
Currently I get the bass required when I run the machine in higher gear in lower speeds like 5th gear in 40s

Here are a few pics from the trip.
Attached Thumbnails
The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-dsc_0001.jpg  

The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-dsc_0258.jpg  

The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-dsc_0343.jpg  

The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-dsc_0380.jpg  

The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-dsc_0403.jpg  

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Old 2nd November 2010, 21:56   #825
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@nasirkaka

Hey thats good, saw your post in the goldstar silencers thread. I am thinking of installing the goldie on my thunderbird. I think the bend pipe does not need to be changed for goldie.

What is the price of the silencer?
What modifications did you do for tuning?
I asked my mechanic if it will affect exhaust valves he denied it. Can you throw some light on this
Also, tell me some place where i can get it in vadodara, would be a great help.
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