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Old 29th January 2010, 18:05   #76
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According to him it's not but if it is then he will get the block and crank changed soon.

I don't think its going to be that high, might be marginally more. He did mentioned it once about the high octane fuel. But I have already tried that to no effect. May be my local reputed pump is not that good after all.

By riding my bike and listening to the noise + he had observed same thing with some bullets down the years whom he had inspected for play in crank, piston rings.

Another weird thing happened today, I reset the ecu and nothing changed even after driving more then 20km's. Then got the tank full with normal fuel and observed reduction in noise but still it was there. I am just going bonkers.

I am open for suggestion and i'll keep an open mind.
So far what you and other are suggesting, I am working on them but nothing concrete is coming up.

@jay-Are you pulling my leg mate. Hi compression and inadequate fueling/incorrect timing=knocking(noise?). From this I keep ruling out the lean mix issue and you lads keep taking me back on that. I am seriously loosing the plot.

I'll wait till the engineers from Chennai come to Chandigarh next month and I'll make sure they return back with some satisfactory answer for me.

Last edited by Randhawa : 29th January 2010 at 18:25.
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Old 29th January 2010, 18:23   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
According to him it's not but if it is then he will get the block and crank changed soon.
Stay away from him. He doesn't know jack about the UCE. Not sure what he knows about CIs.

Can you ride some other CL500 and look for the same sound? I will be doing it tomorrow hopefully. I still think its normal.
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Old 29th January 2010, 18:27   #78
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Randhawa just try one more thing.since this sound comes when you rev the bike at idle also.just pull the clutch lever in and then do the revving and see if the sound is still present.
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Old 29th January 2010, 18:28   #79
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I'll try to find some C5 which has done over 1k on odo. All the ones down here seems to be bought to park in their drives. Only one c5 which had the same noise was the factory C5 which was abused to bits. Lets say its normal but why it's there in the first place. something is not fine tuned then.

@Navpreet318- Majority of the people cant make out the noise on idle. Any way I know what you have in mind so went out and tried and nope its not that.

Last edited by Randhawa : 29th January 2010 at 18:38.
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Old 29th January 2010, 20:37   #80
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Randhawa,

Not pulling your leg man. I'm intrigued to know why this gentleman at the dealership thinks that a 8.5:1 compression ratio is high enough to produce knocking/pinging or whatever noise that is? I just wanted to know what he wanted to convey. Any talk of high octane fuel for the CL500 is crap. AFAIK, the only way to check for ignition timing on these TCI machines is to check with another perfect TCI module. The TCI is a fit and forget system and very rarely does one have an issue with that. Usually, replacing that is the last resort. In your case, I don't think that enough carbon has accumulated in the head to warrant a decarb job in 3000 kilometers. If nothing works, try that too just in case.

Ok, here's my case on the LB500. I had faulty valve guides when my LB500 was less than 800 Kms old. I suffered watching them open up my LB500s engine under 1K for this job. So, don't worry. And don't get paranoid. It will get sorted out. Eliminate possibilities one by one clinically, with an expert at hand. Internet can help, but only to a certain extent. The more opinions you hear, the more confused you'll become. You need a RE engineer, a good RE engineer.

Cheers,

Jay

Last edited by JayPrashanth : 29th January 2010 at 20:42.
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Old 31st January 2010, 17:34   #81
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@spitfire- If it's normal then in that case I would still like to find out what is the cause behind it. Otherwise I'll never be content. Agreed, it could be its inheritance. Did you got to ride it today?

@jay- Yeah I do agree with you.

Here is a list of things(few suggested on here) I want to get checked or I have a suspicion on;
To start with

1. Lean mix issue
2. Timing
3. Auto-de-comp and engine compression
4. Valve springs/guide
5. Hydraulic adjuster- why?-on my E36 I had exactly the same noise when one of the 12 lifters started making noise after doing few track days. But it was only on deceleration.
6. Last would be gudgeon pin and rod which I really don't want to get opened up.

I'll be ok till head getting opened up but if I want to get the H adjuster checked then I'll have to get the block removed as well.

I hope to get a descent set of engineers from Chennai this time who will listen to me and try to get to the root of the issue.


On a lighter note- A copper made my day

Nastia and me got pulled over by a Punjab Police officer(not a traffic copper) whom I had passed 20min ago. Now guess what he stopped me for- Where is your rear seat Janab(sir). I was literally LMFAO. I politely asked him if that was a problem and explained him that it was the first time I ever heard of compulsion to have the second seat. I asked him if I was a threat to road safety. Also mentioned him that classic comes with an option of removing the rear seat and if that was the case then they would have not provided the option.

Does this kind of rule exist lads?

Anyway he let me go without saying much. LOL
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Old 31st January 2010, 17:46   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
@spitfire- If it's normal then in that case I would still like to find out what is the cause behind it. Otherwise I'll never be content. Agreed, it could be its inheritance. Did you got to ride it today?

@jay- Yeah I do agree with you.

Here is a list of things(few suggested on here) I want to get checked or I have a suspicion on;
To start with

1. Lean mix issue
2. Timing
3. Auto-de-comp and engine compression
4. Valve springs/guide
5. Hydraulic adjuster- why?-on my E36 I had exactly the same noise when one of the 12 lifters started making noise after doing few track days. But it was only on deceleration.
6. Last would be gudgeon pin and rod which I really don't want to get opened up.
You can retard the timing by increasing your plug gap. If your pick up reduces noticeably, consider that the timing has been retarded significantly. If this cures the noise, then you can narrow down to the timing. Just remembered this, so put it down.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 1st February 2010, 21:37   #83
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@Jay-I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

Here is a link for in depth Oil lubrication of UCE Royal Enfield UCE Lubrication
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Old 1st February 2010, 23:10   #84
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Plugs turning black as well as black smoke indicate excessively rich fuel mixture. The low fuel economy also confirms this.

If they had left the lamda sensor in there it would be able to read the AFR (air fuel ratio) and correct it but it looks like a big screw up that they have done. They have not tested the bike in cold weather at all and to be safe they have just programmed it to run super rich. The fuel maps are all wrong.

Only solution is that they have to develp a new cal (software) which they will have to upload into your ECU.

As an short term solution have them find the location of the IAT ( Intake air temp sensor) and relocate it behind the engine so that it sees warm air and corrects the AFR.

BTW, its the cat that needs a lamda...not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
There is some issue with the plugs turning out black which the RE is working on it.

In short, engine is a gem. Fitted with a Keihin EFI system and a DENSO (made in Japan) electric starter, CL350 has a Indian made ES. EFI system is same as on exported models except the absence of Lamda sensor due to cost reasons as it needs a expensive CAT.
A cute little fuel pump resides under the left bank on the fuel tank,
..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post

First lot of engineers- Its due to mapping as the engine is running rich and we have called a team from Italy who are working on a re-map.
..

Last edited by Mpower : 2nd February 2010 at 01:05.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 14:40   #85
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I agree with you about the rich mixture. I did some plug chops but the results are not conclusive. I am trying to find out the cost of export model ECU, if its not to expensive then I'll go for it. I believe the wiring for O2 is all ready there in the loom but not used.

Didn't they did their TR up in Leah Ladakh?
RE is not ready to admit any faults with their ECU or running of the bike so it's going to be hard pressed to come out in open and rectify the fault. May be in future 500EFI they might change things.

For short term solution, there are none insight. It does not have a air temp sensor but a engine oil temp sensor. On the intake manifold it has a TPS and Air pressure sensor. So not much of hope playing around with them.

It's the way how you see it. Adding lambda is not expensive but to have desired results for controlling pollution norms(euro), it needs a bigger cat which is expensive as it raises the cost of exhaust to nearly Rs 20,000. RE engineer explained me about the kind of cat which is in export model and difference between the Indian one but I lost the info somewhere in my head.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 14:56   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
They have not tested the bike in cold weather at all and to be safe they have just programmed it to run super rich.
This is an assumption or you know for sure?

@Randhwa: Nope did not get a chance to ride a CL500. Interesting posts above though regarding the sound.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 15:22   #87
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The average price of a motorcycle O2 sensor is around 75 GBP ~ 5000INR

I would expect the price of a new ECU to be significantly more expensive, cant find any quotes online though to confirm.

My question is, do you think RE has used an entirely different ECU than the export C-5, or is it just reprogrammed to not accept inputs from the O2 sensor? If it is the latter, then just flashing it with the new\original programming should suffice. Initial expense may be higher, but with sufficient demand, the cost can be spread out.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 15:29   #88
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We are speculating here BIG TIME. No one knows the inside of the ECU and we are judging it by using our limited knowledge.

PS: I am sure adding an O2 sensor is not a Plug and Play job. Hint: There is a choke.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 16:02   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
We are speculating here BIG TIME. No one knows the inside of the ECU and we are judging it by using our limited knowledge.

PS: I am sure adding an O2 sensor is not a Plug and Play job. Hint: There is a choke.
It definitely isn't plug and play, Ron Chinoy has been experimenting with it and has hit a wall. Find more details here: re-visting the missing O2 sensor.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 16:17   #90
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Dear Randhawa :

Excellent writeup & cheers to your spirit mate for finding an answer. i read this thread in one go & heard the audio as well.

Though I am not as knowledgeable as many gurus here & only have 5-7 years of exp in driving RE. But your noise is quite similar to what I used to get from my Lightning 535S. If you have a friend or some one who has that bike you can find it for yourself. The reason behind tha noise in that bike was Knocking, so may be you should wait for Chennai engg & ensure they resolve it.

However on the sad note that Knocking issue in 535s was never resolved permanently. Many of its owners may agree with me.
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