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Old 26th November 2010, 15:13   #901
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@stnair,GreaseMonk: How can carbon get deposited when Power petrol has higher octane than normal unleaded petrol? Also which type of fuel has been recommended by the company for C5?
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Old 26th November 2010, 15:41   #902
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@ cooded: Well, that's the question, isn't it. Purely higher octane petrol wouldn't cause carbon deposits if lower octane petrol didn't. The issue is how companies achieve these higher octane numbers (additives, better refinement process, etc)? Or if the petrol is even higher octane in the first place because no one really seems to check this.

The fact that the 'higher octane' petrol caused carbon deposits and switch back to regular petrol resolved the issue indicates that the quality of the 'higher octane' petrol (either from that bunk alone, or the company as a whole) is questionable.
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Old 26th November 2010, 17:10   #903
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonk View Post
@ cooded: Well, that's the question, isn't it. Purely higher octane petrol wouldn't cause carbon deposits if lower octane petrol didn't. The issue is how companies achieve these higher octane numbers (additives, better refinement process, etc)? Or if the petrol is even higher octane in the first place because no one really seems to check this.

The fact that the 'higher octane' petrol caused carbon deposits and switch back to regular petrol resolved the issue indicates that the quality of the 'higher octane' petrol (either from that bunk alone, or the company as a whole) is questionable.
I am going to try to fill speed petrol and see how my bike performs.
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Old 26th November 2010, 18:28   #904
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I am going to try to fill speed petrol and see how my bike performs.
You might be better off sticking to the regular brew from Shell or Reliance - the purest fuel I've experienced.
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Old 26th November 2010, 21:05   #905
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@Codded- I think here is some confusion I have created for all. In my city we get only two kind of petrol and I guess in other big cities there are three types of petrol available.

1. 91 octane - which is the normal petrol.
2. 93 octane- I call it high speed and you lads call it xtra premium
3. 97 octane- I wasn't even aware of if it was available in India as its hard to get it even in UK or Canada.

So I prefer 93 octane. What exactly you want to know about ECU, not much there to tell really.

@san- I would tip towards adulterated fuel from the petrol bunk you filled in.

@GreaseMonk- I agree with you on that.

91 octane is quite good enough for our C5 if its coming from a trusted source.
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Old 26th November 2010, 21:53   #906
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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
1. 91 octane - which is the normal petrol.
2. 93 octane- I call it high speed and you lads call it xtra premium
3. 97 octane- I wasn't even aware of if it was available in India as its hard to get it even in UK or Canada.
Wow. Great info. But Was it on a Contessa, I noticed a sticker telling 'Use only 99 octane petrol' ? Anyone else remember seeing such a caution notice ? I am sure I ve seen it but dont remember where, but if such high octane is not available in India, then why??

regards
san
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Old 26th November 2010, 22:25   #907
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That sticker you saw on a contessa must be one of those funny stickers
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Old 27th November 2010, 01:03   #908
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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
@Codded- I think here is some confusion I have created for all. In my city we get only two kind of petrol and I guess in other big cities there are three types of petrol available.

1. 91 octane - which is the normal petrol.
2. 93 octane- I call it high speed and you lads call it xtra premium
3. 97 octane- I wasn't even aware of if it was available in India as its hard to get it even in UK or Canada.

So I prefer 93 octane. What exactly you want to know about ECU, not much there to tell really.

@san- I would tip towards adulterated fuel from the petrol bunk you filled in.

@GreaseMonk- I agree with you on that.

91 octane is quite good enough for our C5 if its coming from a trusted source.
@Randhawa : We do get speed 97 here in Pune. Anyways i warmed up my bikes engine for a good 3 to 4 mins and i rode for around an hour and a half and i dint experience a single "jhatka"(engine did not stall at all ). So i dont think it was the type of petrol that was causing it. I will run the same routine tomorrow too.I have serious issues with the bikes stability. No one has been able to solve the alignment problem. Also the front shocks squeak when worked.Rear wheel squeaks too when rotated.Guess RE forgot to oil my bike. The front wheel does not rotate smoothly and freely because the disc is rubbing against the pads somewhere.The clicking noise from the tappets is increasing and i can feel a humming noise coming out of the engine too.Lots of issues...but cant do without her.

The ECU: I wanted to know which unit of Keihin FI is being used by RE(model number etc).What are the different types of sensors that are being used? Which processor is controlling the FI unit?(with datasheet if possible).
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Old 27th November 2010, 12:56   #909
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Best mileage figures on a C500, @ 47.5 kms/ltr

The fuel consumption on my C500 had come down from a healthy 33kms/lt of fuel to 23kms/lts of fuel. So I decided to have it checked by the service engineer. He followed the following procedure:

1) Emptied the fuel tank completely by removing it from the bike and shaking our complete fuel through the fuel sensor hole, until no more fuel could be heard in the tank.
2) Measured volume of 4 lts of fuel was added to the tank, followed by a run of 38 kms, on a constant speed of 60kmph.
3) Remaining fuel was recollected and measured carefully using the same process as in step 1. It turns out that the bike had consumed only 0.800 lts of fuel.......which left me truly surprised.

What is the reason for my posting this information here........? Its just to inform you that the C500 is pretty frugal machine in terms of fuel consumption if ridden sensibly.
Therefore if you are running low on gas, you know how to strech the miles on it...cheers !!!
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Old 27th November 2010, 18:37   #910
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Originally Posted by bradhey View Post
Best mileage figures on a C500, @ 47.5 kms/ltr

The fuel consumption on my C500 had come down from a healthy 33kms/lt of fuel to 23kms/lts of fuel. So I decided to have it checked by the service engineer. He followed the following procedure:

1) Emptied the fuel tank completely by removing it from the bike and shaking our complete fuel through the fuel sensor hole, until no more fuel could be heard in the tank.
2) Measured volume of 4 lts of fuel was added to the tank, followed by a run of 38 kms, on a constant speed of 60kmph.
3) Remaining fuel was recollected and measured carefully using the same process as in step 1. It turns out that the bike had consumed only 0.800 lts of fuel.......which left me truly surprised.

What is the reason for my posting this information here........? Its just to inform you that the C500 is pretty frugal machine in terms of fuel consumption if ridden sensibly.
Therefore if you are running low on gas, you know how to strech the miles on it...cheers !!!
Thats a lot...awesome...i am too scared to find my bikes average...because i know its going to be less than 20 km/ltr
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Old 27th November 2010, 23:12   #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonk View Post
@ cooded: Well, that's the question, isn't it. Purely higher octane petrol wouldn't cause carbon deposits if lower octane petrol didn't. The issue is how companies achieve these higher octane numbers (additives, better refinement process, etc)? Or if the petrol is even higher octane in the first place because no one really seems to check this.

The fact that the 'higher octane' petrol caused carbon deposits and switch back to regular petrol resolved the issue indicates that the quality of the 'higher octane' petrol (either from that bunk alone, or the company as a whole) is questionable.
Octane rating indicates how slowly the fuel burns ( the lower the On Number , The faster the fuel burns) .A higher compression ratio (Ratio of swept volume to combustion chamber volume) also causes fuel to burn faster. If you run an engine with high compression ratios , higher octane fuel helps prevent detonation , pinging , knock and subsequent piston damage by burning slower.
Higher octane fuels also perform better under part load full throttle conditions to reduce ping. Unless an engine is designed to use Hi Octane fuel, the premium fuel will do no more damage than lighten your wallet faster and increase the emission of unburnt hydrocarbons in the exhaust but if your engine has been tweaked , tuned or modified and pings or knocks with a normal fuel , high octane may be the way to go.
Many modern cars and bikes have an engine Knock sensor that will detect knocking and change the mixture and/or ignition timing , reducing power output. Such engines may benefit from Hi octane fuels. Mods such as a free flow exhaust system and free flow air filters on bikes need carburettor re-jetting to make sure the mix is optimal. On ECU controlled EFI systems , this increase in air flow is compensated with longer injection pulses so again if the system functions well , there really is no need for speed 97 or 93 on a Classic 500.
Check out B P C L for some more info.
Normal fuels and some premium fuels are 88-91 Octane
Speed 93 is a 93 Octane fuel
Speed 97 is a 97 octane fuel.
Hp Power 91 ??
Most premium fuels contain additives that claim to remove combustion chamber deposits ( no idea if this actually works ) but in an engine in good condition , the premium fuel should not cause plug fouling. That is more an effect of the fuel air ratio than fuel octane rating.( choked air filer ?? )
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Old 28th November 2010, 12:12   #912
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Hello,

There is not much info on the internet about the Fi unit used by RE on C5 except the fact that the unit is produced by Keihin.Other than that there is nothing. So i wanted to ask a few questions:

1.From the electrical circuit diagram i think there are around 11 sensors.( Do correct me if i am wrong.) which are Crank position sensor, TH,PM,TE,K-line,1G,INJ,FLPR,IGP(),Roll over sensor,Malfunction indicator.

Please can somebody give me a short description of each sensor.

2. The EFI unit is an open loop system(correct me if i am wrong again)

3. The IC Model number has not been mentioned on the circuit diagram.

4. Which particular Keihin FI has been used?(Model number.. etc..).IS it available on the Keihin website?

5. How do you tune the FI unit?

6. Can the C5 FI be converted into a Carburated one?

7. A k&N filter on a carburated bike increases the performance slightly.Will adding a K&N filter drastically improve the performance? (considering C5 has a FI)

Well some of the questions might seem really silly for the Gurus...but please bear with me...
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Old 28th November 2010, 16:48   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooded View Post
Hello,

There is not much info on the internet about the Fi unit used by RE on C5 except the fact that the unit is produced by Keihin.Other than that there is nothing. So i wanted to ask a few questions:

1.From the electrical circuit diagram i think there are around 11 sensors.( Do correct me if i am wrong.) which are Crank position sensor, TH,PM,TE,K-line,1G,INJ,FLPR,IGP(),Roll over sensor,Malfunction indicator.

Please can somebody give me a short description of each sensor.

2. The EFI unit is an open loop system(correct me if i am wrong again)

3. The IC Model number has not been mentioned on the circuit diagram.

4. Which particular Keihin FI has been used?(Model number.. etc..).IS it available on the Keihin website?

5. How do you tune the FI unit?

6. Can the C5 FI be converted into a Carburated one?

7. A k&N filter on a carburated bike increases the performance slightly.Will adding a K&N filter drastically improve the performance? (considering C5 has a FI)

Well some of the questions might seem really silly for the Gurus...but please bear with me...
HI,
The ECU sensor set used in the Classic 500 is as follows
1. Crank position sensor - Measures the angular position of the Crank , thereby estimating the position of the piston. This helps time the Fuel injection pulse and the spark timing precisely for best combustion. This sensor also provides info about the actual rotational speed of the engine which is used in the rev limiter , which cuts fuel supply @ 5250 or 5500 RPM ( depending on who you believe), I have run into this limiter a couple of times in 2nd , 3rd gears testing.

2. Engine temperature sensor - The efficiency of combustion and the fuel air ratio influence the temperature and the ECU can keep the engine temp within limits by changing the spark timing and fuel air ratio. The sensor also affects the fuel air mix and ignition timing for cold starts.

3. Manifold Air Pressure Sensor- Helps send Airflow information to the ecu , which in conjunction with the throttle position sensor allows optimal fuel air mix , injection and ignition timing.

4. Throttle Position Sensor- see above

The ECU also takes input from the Rollover sensor - to cut power to the fuel pump on tilt for safety.

The outputs from the ECU control
1. The fuel Pump
2. The fuel Injector
3. The ignition coil

The export models have an exhaust oxygen sensor also- This forms part of the closed loop ECU system that allows the ECU to modify the F/A mix and Ignition timing based on how much oxygen the exhaust contains ( too less , the mix is rich and too much , it is lean ) allowing feedback to modify operation. These ECU models come with multiple ignition maps which are selected based on the Ex OX or Lambda sensor. The Domestic 500 FI runs a fixed ignition map.

The IC used in an ECU is a custom LSI chip with inbuilt ROM that is programmed for the vehicle model. They are usually custom designed for a type of engine and then modified as per manufacturers inputs.

I do not have the injector model number but the specifications that are important are in the Service Manual
The fuel injector specs as in the service manual-
Operating Voltage : 10 14 V.
Operating temperature : 30 C to + 120 C.
Fuel Injection pressure : 294 kpa (2.9 bar)
Solenoid Operating Resistance : 10.3 0.5 Ohms

Max injector flow rate with this pump has been quoted as 225 cc/min max ( not verified)

THe FI can be tuned by the engineers who have access to the program as well as the module programmer. Most times , major parameters are read only , allowing minor algorithmic changes only. The more expensive / race ECUs can be programmed in more detail but that is a job best left to R& D facilities and the manufacturer.

Theoretically , the C 500 can be converted to a carburetter model but would be counter productive . The power / torque and emission control afforded by FI cannot ever be matched by the Carb as a carb responds to just 2 inputs ( Air flow and throttle position). The wiring would have to be modified extensively and the power characteristics will change considerably.
The K&N filters would reduce intake restriction allowing a bit more airflow at full throttle but for most normal running , the throttle plate is the major flow restriction , not the air filter. Assuming full throttle operation , the increase in intake would have to be matched by an increase in exhaust as well as increased fuel flow to maintain the correct Fuel Air mix. The equations are complicated but some tuning is possible.

check out the technical articles in the link below for some interesting info -
Puma Racing Main Menu Page - flow development, engine building, technical and tuning articles

Regards
Naren
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Old 28th November 2010, 18:16   #914
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Originally Posted by hexanerax View Post
HI,
The ECU sensor set used in the Classic 500 is as follows
1. Crank position sensor - Measures the angular position of the Crank , thereby estimating the position of the piston. This helps time the Fuel injection pulse and the spark timing precisely for best combustion. This sensor also provides info about the actual rotational speed of the engine which is used in the rev limiter , which cuts fuel supply @ 5250 or 5500 RPM ( depending on who you believe), I have run into this limiter a couple of times in 2nd , 3rd gears testing.

2. Engine temperature sensor - The efficiency of combustion and the fuel air ratio influence the temperature and the ECU can keep the engine temp within limits by changing the spark timing and fuel air ratio. The sensor also affects the fuel air mix and ignition timing for cold starts.

3. Manifold Air Pressure Sensor- Helps send Airflow information to the ecu , which in conjunction with the throttle position sensor allows optimal fuel air mix , injection and ignition timing.

4. Throttle Position Sensor- see above

The ECU also takes input from the Rollover sensor - to cut power to the fuel pump on tilt for safety.

The outputs from the ECU control
1. The fuel Pump
2. The fuel Injector
3. The ignition coil

The export models have an exhaust oxygen sensor also- This forms part of the closed loop ECU system that allows the ECU to modify the F/A mix and Ignition timing based on how much oxygen the exhaust contains ( too less , the mix is rich and too much , it is lean ) allowing feedback to modify operation. These ECU models come with multiple ignition maps which are selected based on the Ex OX or Lambda sensor. The Domestic 500 FI runs a fixed ignition map.

The IC used in an ECU is a custom LSI chip with inbuilt ROM that is programmed for the vehicle model. They are usually custom designed for a type of engine and then modified as per manufacturers inputs.

I do not have the injector model number but the specifications that are important are in the Service Manual
The fuel injector specs as in the service manual-
Operating Voltage : 10 14 V.
Operating temperature : 30 C to + 120 C.
Fuel Injection pressure : 294 kpa (2.9 bar)
Solenoid Operating Resistance : 10.3 0.5 Ohms

Max injector flow rate with this pump has been quoted as 225 cc/min max ( not verified)

THe FI can be tuned by the engineers who have access to the program as well as the module programmer. Most times , major parameters are read only , allowing minor algorithmic changes only. The more expensive / race ECUs can be programmed in more detail but that is a job best left to R& D facilities and the manufacturer.

Theoretically , the C 500 can be converted to a carburetter model but would be counter productive . The power / torque and emission control afforded by FI cannot ever be matched by the Carb as a carb responds to just 2 inputs ( Air flow and throttle position). The wiring would have to be modified extensively and the power characteristics will change considerably.
The K&N filters would reduce intake restriction allowing a bit more airflow at full throttle but for most normal running , the throttle plate is the major flow restriction , not the air filter. Assuming full throttle operation , the increase in intake would have to be matched by an increase in exhaust as well as increased fuel flow to maintain the correct Fuel Air mix. The equations are complicated but some tuning is possible.

check out the technical articles in the link below for some interesting info -
Puma Racing Main Menu Page - flow development, engine building, technical and tuning articles

Regards
Naren

@hexanerax : Thanks for the info. So basically we cant tune the Fi like we used to tune our carburetor.In the ckt diagram there are sensors which are marked TH, PM , TE, K-Line, 1G, FPLR. You have given the description, can you also please tell me the long form or tell me which one is MAP, Temp sensor etc. Also there is a test pin which is to be connected to ground via a switch. I have a green unhooked wire jutting out of the sensor box. Can you tell me how to use it for diagnostic of the ECU and the meaning of each diagnostic result?

Thanks again.
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Old 28th November 2010, 20:26   #915
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Hello,

I did the 1st servicing of my bike at around 500 kms. I have rode for 1300 kms till now. I checked the oil level, and it has dropped down to half.I havnt noticed any leaks so far. Is it normal or do i have to get the oil topped up?
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