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Old 24th February 2011, 21:30   #1336
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

I finally gave the delivery of the bike last week. it was fund driving it till it was there. I sold it for Rs.1,30,000/- after having done 12,600 kms fro the January 2010 Model. The new owner paid for the insurance.

The last ride was to Pune and Goa. Will post a detailed report later on.
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Old 24th February 2011, 21:40   #1337
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

@Pratik- This is exactly what I was expecting and this is at it's worse. You should have taken a picture of the piston crown too. I bet it had a layer of fat carbon(like a roasted wafer) rather then just the soot.

I am 100% sure you had a sticking valve. Did you do the leak test as I said? Ask the mechanic to remove the valve and do lapping on the valve seat just enough to clean the carbon on the edges, clean the valve and then assemble the valves.

Note- DO NOT reuse the valve stem seals. Its the red small cap which goes over the valve guide and valve stem passes through it.

Please Elaborate "i didnt find any major leakage" I am not expecting any major leakage either but enough to cause hesitation, jerking and misfiring. Improper or leak in compression results in poor combustion and again excess carbon deposit and in your case the reason behind the multiple times of spark plugs replaced.


Advisory Note to all on head de-carbonizing

Please do not use any hard sandpaper or any kind of sharp weapon on the head chamber or on valves. Valves are specially treated with some kind of coating and using the said weaponry will remove the coating on the valves and damage the valve surface and chamber.

You should only use scotchbrite and some soapy water to clean it and gently too.

Reason for going soft on head scratching

I refer to a term called Squish or Quench- Basically the quench/squish area is the tight area between the flat portion of the piston and the concave portion of the combustion chamber. All the compression generated through the piston is squeezed into this tiny area before it goes big bada boom.

Lot of factors go into having optimal squish few of them is flame through and volume of the squish area. In short lesser the area/smoother the surface=more compression= more efficient the big bada boom= more power.

So scratching the surface means increasing the volume and reducing the smoothness of the surface(which results in many other changes) which in ideal condition aren't favourable. But after a little amount of carbon gets deposited then things improve. Our problem lies with more then needed carbon due to incorrect mapping and absence of O2 sensor to limit the formation of carbon due to rich mixture.

Most of us would have heard the term head polishing and porting. You will be doing exactly opposite if chosen the wrong method.

Above is an example on how not to clean the head. Sorry Pratik I am not happy with the way they have done it but I am sure there is no immediate damage I can see.

But do get the valves removed/cleaned and valve seat lapped otherwise the whole process of cleaning the head will go waste because our main problem lies due to leak on the valve seat.

Most importantly for you- Please start doing proper warm up and no matter what you do, just don't whack the throttle(that is where you do the most damage on cold engine) for at least 3-4 minutes and avoid turning your engine on and off on very short rides.

After this exercise I am expecting very positive results from your side. Do replace the plugs with new ones as most probably your plugs are fouled by now. Don't even tempt to re-use them, at least for now after de-carbonizing.

@Hemant- RPM should have not gone down unless the plug gaps needs adjusting. Get that checked and have a look at your air filter too. With a dirty filter the rpm goes down a lot. If you want to be sure then start your bike and while idling just remove the filter to observe any rpm change. If there is then you have your answer.

I'll say just do the above before you adjust the RPM. Anyways inc/dec RPM is very easy on C5. Refer to the post where I had explained every part of the throttle/intake manifold assembly and how to adjust RPM. Just search this thread.

@Nasir- This is what happens in just 3k and think how much weight the head on your C5 would have put on by now.

Most frustrating part is that lot of C5 owners who are way over their warranty mileage will be having the same problems across India and the best part for RE is they can not help you. We are on our own to resolve this and take precautionary measures.

I am suspecting the same in you bike too because of the symptoms but its just starting.

If you can not find STP then try looking for WURUTH cleaner as their company has base in India and they too have a de-carbonizing additive. I'll see what I can find down here and let you know by tomorrow.

@Rahul- Thats really good price you got. Sorry to see you leave our gang

Last edited by Randhawa : 24th February 2011 at 22:03.
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Old 24th February 2011, 22:21   #1338
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
@Hemant- RPM should have not gone down unless the plug gaps needs adjusting. Get that checked and have a look at your air filter too. With a dirty filter the rpm goes down a lot. If you want to be sure then start your bike and while idling just remove the filter to observe any rpm change. If there is then you have your answer.

I'll say just do the above before you adjust the RPM. Anyways inc/dec RPM is very easy on C5. Refer to the post where I had explained every part of the throttle/intake manifold assembly and how to adjust RPM. Just search this thread.
I just changed the air filter 2 weeks back. so this is eliminated. I will get the spark plug gap checked.
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Old 24th February 2011, 22:52   #1339
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Forgot to mention more then 1050RPM will lead to high fuel consumption. Anything between 1000 -1050 RPM is the best, lower then that might cause jerks. Low fuel will also lower RPM. Observe it and you will feel C5 to be a living being as so many small things effect so many other things on C5 just like most of us mortals.
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Old 25th February 2011, 08:39   #1340
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Hi Randhawa,
thanks buddy for support this is all because of you and owe it.I have forwarded your message to service manager yesterday and will see what can be done today by the ways after this process is your bike running well? and what about FE? i think so i have the image of crown piston hoping that its the same.
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Old 25th February 2011, 10:18   #1341
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Yes it was as good as new and FE went up in the range of 28-32. Probably yours hovering around 22-25 without riding hard.

Clean the piston top with engine oil and a cloth gently. Otherwise the carbon deposits could seep into the side wall and get into the rings.

Was your piston changed/cleaned and how long ago?. It looks like not done more then 1.5k but on a second thought, could you take a picture of the barrel from inside by pushing the piston down.

Last edited by Randhawa : 25th February 2011 at 10:36.
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Old 25th February 2011, 11:45   #1342
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Randhawa: Thanks for the updates. I thought the striker was selecting gears, by turning the cam plate. But you say it just slots the cam plate in its place. So what actually selects gears........??

Also I would like to update you that the striker can be changed easily by opening the right side panel. It does not require the engine to be split, which is certainly the case with the cam plate. I know this for sure because I have had the striker spring changed once earlier. The entire gear rocker assembly can be worked on through the RH panel, except for the CAM plate.....sigh.... I wish it was also accessible as easily as I do not want to split the engine just yet, and for such a problem which can be lived with.
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Old 25th February 2011, 12:41   #1343
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Hey thanks for all the support. Would try and do the needful in the coming days.

@Nasir- This is all you need and its better in long run too. Instruction are provided for the right amount to be added to the fuel. STP Complete Fuel System Cleaner for Petrol Engines - STP UK

Will go hunting for STP or Wuruth, the later sounds familiar and most likely i will find it.



Regarding your K&N clean up, dusting and blowing is not the way to clean the K&N. Do it properly.

Yes sire, Shall do it properly, and recharge it soon.

Increase the free play on the clutch lever a bit more. Are the jerks only on same speed or while accelerating and decelerating also? Is it a jerk/shudder or judder?

Jerks are precisely at the same speed, and never while accelerating. The jerks would be best described like a missed conmustion followed by a successful combustion, producing the jerks. Like the fuel is not steadly flowing to the engine. a missed beat and jerk, a successful beat, then again a missed beat and jerk, untill i accelerate a bit and bike pulls smoothly. These jerks are more pronounced over speed breakers, (just after getting down from the breaker). Not sure i am able to explain the jerks properly here.

Will try and increase the free play on the clutch lever today as DIY.



If its the later then get the cushion rubber checked along with swing arm bushes. Get the bushes removed completely to check and not just by moving the swing arm sideways for checking any side play.

The jerks very prominently seem to come from the engines running, or i would say running un-smoothly with frequent missed combustion.

There is probability that moisture got into the tank so ride a bit more in reserve fuel and then top up.

Let me know after you get these carried out;
Get the cushion rubber checked along with the swing arm bushes
Top up the tank with more fuel
Increase in clutch lever play
Clean the K&N the way it should be cleaned

Will do the needful. ALso like Hamaths, after the goldie, the bike is taking 2-3 ES attempts in the morning to start. Earlier it use to come alive on the first.

Also, some people believe that hig octane fuel needs greater compression to combust successfully, and our c5s may run best on normal petrol. i have been using the indian oil extra premium all along, do you think switching over to normal petrol may make any difference?


Last edited by nasirkaka : 25th February 2011 at 12:53.
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Old 25th February 2011, 18:02   #1344
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Hey Randhawa,
went searching for the STP/WURTH/VALVOLINE etc, but could not get them here in bangalore.

What i got is something called WYNN's complete fuel system cleaner. (pic attached). It says to be added to petrol. Can u advise whether to go ahead with this product?? The shopkeeper said its meant for cars.

BEHIND THE Container it says the following:
* reduces fuel consumption
* reduces harmful exhaust emissions
* improves engine performance.

In addition to this i also got a charger kit for the K&N. will clean and recharge it myself.

Also, i pickedup a set of metal wire brush for cleaning the spark plug. I opened the plug and found it to be quite black, with just a small brown patch on either side. Cleaned it using the set of wire brush and must say it works well.

Do let me know on whether to go ahead with WYNN's fuel system cleaner. some pics of the products follows: (sorry for phone quality)
Attached Thumbnails
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The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-image0163.jpg  

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The Royal Enfield 500 Classic thread!-image0161.jpg  

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Old 25th February 2011, 18:12   #1345
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

@Bradhey- Apologies on my end for misinforming you about the striker. Yes you are right about the striker, its function and the replacement procedure. Basically its fixed on the shaft and this is what moves the cam plate, when you remove the shaft it comes out with it as its assembled on the shaft.

I mistook it to another similar looking striker which is placed inside and to remove it you need to split the engine. Its function is to hold the cam plate in its position.

Look for the picture below, its location and similarity to the striker.

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@Nasir- Also look for OSW de-carbonizing additive. Its a german company and 150ml cost Rs 500 which is specially made for 2 wheelers.

Ok I know exactly what kind of jerks you mean now. But still get the cushion rubbers and swing arm bushes checked so that it makes our life easy to pin point the issue.

Now try to remember this for future trouble shooting as even I forgot about it but somehow managed to recall it.

Whenever you change to any other exhaust from OEM bazooka, you will get your idling RPM disturbed. For e.g. when you remove bazooka and put on the upswept, you will notice an increase in RPM. Which you would need to decrease to get the idling right.

What happened with the goldie was that when you removed the upswept which is more free flow then your goldie, you had the rpm just about right for your normal running. But when you put on the goldie which in your case is not that free flowing due to glass wool inside compared to upswept, RPM went down just a tad bit but enough to disturb your smooth running. I feel that's what is causing the jerks. Because you did not changed anything apart from your bike having a shower in open and it should not cause that much change in behaviour.

Increase RPM a bit and let us know if it changed anything after a day of riding. I am presuming you will come back with a smile.

C5 is a very simple machine but we think otherwise so you just have to learn how to listen to her and get her running right in no time.

I have said it earlier as well and I'll say it again. Why I sometimes recommend running on premium fuel is not because our compression is too much so we need it but due to the fact that high octane fuel has cleansing agent init which helps in removing the carbon hence better combustion due to cleaned up plug in shorter time which results in less carbon deposit due to proper combustion. Its kind of cheap alternative to de-carbonizing additives.

We have plenty of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber to increase the compression pressure anyways so we are bound to get some extra juice from the engine with premium fuel.

Normally I fuel her up with premium fuel when I am going on long rides and stick to normal fuel in city.


Seems like its a injector cleaner and not much more. Usually there are two kind of fuel additives available for petrol engine. One is purely for injector cleaner and other is all in one(injector, fuel line, piston top, intake/exhaust ports and valves). I recommend the later as this is what we want and not just injector cleaner.

I have used Wynns product in past and its not the best. I'll say its just ok and the one you are holding is not what I would recommend because it looks like just a injector cleaner and nothing more but cant read if it says it cleans the valves and ports too. So if you can get a refund on it then go for or just try it what the heck hey.

Like them brushes you got, really good ones and now you have the proper cleaning kit for K&N so you wont be giving me any chance to ask you to clean the K&N again hey

Best time to check the plugs is when you have done a long ride, no matter what you do you will always find the plugs black under 20km. Just try this for better understanding, clean the plug and put it back in. Then ride for 1-5km and check again, you will find it black all over again. But this scene will improve once we have our Indian summers back.

Last edited by Randhawa : 25th February 2011 at 18:31.
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Old 26th February 2011, 12:11   #1346
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
What happened with the goldie was that when you removed the upswept which is more free flow then your goldie, you had the rpm just about right for your normal running. But when you put on the goldie which in your case is not that free flowing due to glass wool inside compared to upswept, RPM went down just a tad bit but enough to disturb your smooth running. I feel that's what is causing the jerks. Because you did not changed anything apart from your bike having a shower in open and it should not cause that much change in behaviour.
Makes sense. Thanks. let me now search the pages back to where u had explained on how to increase/decrease the RPM, and try. Can i do it my self???
Not sure if i will be able to return the Wynns, might as well give it shot. It says 250ml for 50 litres of petrol. Will calculate the amount for full tank and pour it. Atleast it may help the injectors. Just for the info, this one costed 270 Rs.

Will clean the K&N tonight, and install it tomorrow. Will also get the bush and cushions checked one of these days.


GOT IT!! PAGE 22.

Hey, a few doubts regarding the idle adjuster. DO i have to remove the unit from the rubber hose? if yes, i cant get a feel of LIVE PRM. Its not very clear from the pic if i can access the idle adjustor screw on the bike without dismantling anything. Will have to go down to the bike and have a look and get some clarity. Let me see in sometime.

Last edited by nasirkaka : 26th February 2011 at 12:22.
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Old 26th February 2011, 12:36   #1347
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

No need to dismount anything, easily doable with a long screwdriver. Will post a picture when I get home.

Found two available additives, OSW and Wurth. No info on
OSW but the Wurth is benzil based additive. It's 300ml for Rs 400. It's available in Bangalore also. Can get a group
discount on this. Check out the video I had posted for rpm reference.

You will have to add 60ml in a tank full.

Last edited by Randhawa : 26th February 2011 at 12:40.
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Old 26th February 2011, 13:24   #1348
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Feedback on Clutch lever play: Adjusted it to 5mm by measuring it with a scale instead of guess work. Results : Did not notice any appreciable change in the gear shifting (they were from very smooth to erractic at times, as they have always been). My guess is there may be some problem with either the shifter forks or the CAM plate in the tranny..........!!

"BUT" there was a very appreciable difference in the way the bike was delivering power now, and picking up high speed......It seemed liberated at best.

Which made me gun for higher speeds than normal and I was very disappointed to note the rear end oscillation plague me once again

Do I have a choice........................!!
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Old 26th February 2011, 14:40   #1349
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

At least you got something positive by adjusting the clutch cable play.

To be honest UCE does have a behavioural gear shifting problem and we have to live with it and to some extent adapt to shift it better. I really don't want to recommend you splitting up the engine and still get the same results. I am saying because if the cam plate and forks had some issues then the problem should be consistent. Just try replacing the gear lever shaft and rocker shaft assembly along with the striker.

If after that it does not improve then you will know for sure what needs to be done.

But try this too, shift with half clutch and when upshifting during 50km/h + dip the throttle a bit before upshifting. Specially when your are riding hard.


With the oscillation issue which now I am of conclusion that it is there because of two reasons.
1. As our US brothers have found it and I concur with then on this, its due to the crank. It have confirmed about it numerous times with RE recently. As they kept on saying the fish tail manoeuvre was due to the imbalanced crank and now they have sorted that out but to this part I don't agree with them as I have the latest upgraded crank and before the bush upgrade it was still there.
2. The bushes need to be upgraded to the CI ones. Now after the upgrade I still get the oscillation but very rarely and only on the road where there is undulation on the road. I have tried to repeat my speed runs just to see if I can get the oscillation on a smoother road but till now not even once I had managed to reproduce the oscillation.

3. Bigger tyre in front which I have yet to try a speed run but had a test ride on the new C5 with 19 front and honestly I thanked myself for not going for a 19 front. It just felt clumsy and very light front end feeling. Did not gave me the confidence of C5 with 18 front.

So only choice I feel you have is bush upgrade or 19 front. But I cant confirm it yet if this issue is not on newer C5's.

Bush upgrade seem to be the only cheap and best choice so far and if you do plan to do it then I would recommend using Bronze washel instead of the steel or iron ones. I have a feeling that it wasn't the best material to be used with iron bushes and I will be upgrading the washel with bronze ones and if you want to upgrade it too then let me know. I'll get a second pair made for you.


But I think we need to look into aftermarket rear shock absorbers too. That might work better then anything else and I suspect the quality of the rear shockers fitted as OEM.

Last edited by Randhawa : 26th February 2011 at 15:10.
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Old 26th February 2011, 15:20   #1350
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

In my opinion the chassis of the C5 (with 18" wheel front and back) is tuned a little too sharp, so that in case of even slightest deviation from the correct tuning of front and rear wheel components, it goes fish tailing.

I also think this may not be due to the crank, cause if it was so, then this would be experienced in all gears, whenever we approached the same RPMs on the engine...

And though I may love this bike for all its ease of manoeuverability out of tricky situations, I would not like it to shake its derriere when I wish to demonstrate its superiority over other machines. In most other times, I am a sedate rider and would hardly go over 100 at most which she manages very easily.
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