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Old 26th February 2011, 17:51   #1351
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

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No need to dismount anything, easily doable with a long screwdriver. Will post a picture when I get home.
Hey, found the location of idling screw, but not sure if i can access it. First the seat, second the Frame comes in between. How can i access with a long screwdriver? :(
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Old 26th February 2011, 18:13   #1352
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Be brave, just pull a tad bit or twist the throttle body towards yourself. If the TB isn't twisting then just loosen up the screw on the circle clip holding up the throttle body to the black connector near engine side.

Last edited by Randhawa : 26th February 2011 at 18:17.
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Old 26th February 2011, 22:35   #1353
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

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Originally Posted by bradhey View Post
In my opinion the chassis of the C5 (with 18" wheel front and back) is tuned a little too sharp, so that in case of even slightest deviation from the correct tuning of front and rear wheel components, it goes fish tailing.
I agree 100% with you on this. Just few things which can disrupt its smooth straight line flow.

1. Tyre pressure
2. Incorrect level of fork oil
3. Play in swing arm bushes
4. Rear wheel not aligned properly
5. Rim run out
6. Tyre run out
7. Rear shockers with incorrect pressure
8. Rear shockers misaligned


@Nasir Tried to find out some info on the Wynns product you purchased but seem like the one you bought is just the fuel system cleaner and not a de-carbonizer. Its a American company and it does makes a de-carbonizer fuel additive but its not available through their franchise in India.

Have a look http://www.itwchemin.com/pdf/product...0leaflet-1.pdf

While we are at it I think we should see what else is available down here which is worth spending money on. Took some help from Mr Singh(US forum) for deciding which fuel additive is better. Although I can hardly say there is any option but here is what I could find.

Fuel additives available in India for de-carbonizing and a must for C5

As you all C5 owners know who are suffering from performance issues or for those who will be facing performance issues due to excessive built up of carbon deposit in the combustion chamber due to rich mixture issue on our C5 and RE has not provided any solution to it yet. So in order to save our skin we better take precaution or suffer later.

There are other ways to de-carbonize but lets take the easy route which any one can try without much of a hassle.

So far I have found only three fuel additives in my town which can do this job so I am sharing this info with you all. You are most welcome to give your valuable inputs and any other make of fuel additive you can locally source so we can compare.

A. OWS(Germany) for two wheelers- No info on content. Rs 500

B. Wuerth(Germany) Petrol Additive- Rs 400

1. Low boiling point hydrogen treated naptha
2. Propane-2-ol
3. kerosine
4. Hydrocarbylamine
5. Phenol, isobutylented
6. 2-(2-heptadec-8-enyl-2-imidazolin-1-yl)ethanol
7. (Z)-N-methyl-n-(1-oxo-9-octadecenyl)glycine
8. Napthalene

C. Cyclo(USA)- Max 44 total system cleaner - Contents Rs 100-300
1. Fuel oil, no. 2
2. Xylene (mixed isomers)
3. Ethylbenzene
4. Naphthalene
5. Polymer Amine Blend


Company B & C has base in India so it should not be a problem of sourcing their product.

So far Wuerth or Würth seems to be the best products as it not only cleans but lubricates too.

I will be trying this out in a week or so and I'll let you know how it performs.
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Old 27th February 2011, 10:16   #1354
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Hi Randhawa,
arey yaar iam really fedup!I went for correction of intake valve,filldup new oil and even premium petrol but very first day it started misfiring.To check i took longset way home rather than shorter one.
Engine sound has changed and it feels like new but now iam observing some jerks and also feel that missing problem is ought to start.What to do now for the time being i have made up my mind to send legal notice and even tomorrow i am going to force them to change my engine head which will also replace valves and all shitty parts.Today after total of 50kms ride i checked my spark plugs and those were again soothe black..
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Old 27th February 2011, 12:35   #1355
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Oh man I don't know what to make out of it but I am fed up more then you. Pm your phone no and we will discuss it over the phone.
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Old 28th February 2011, 12:03   #1356
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

@ Randhawa:

Some updates:

Saturday night i removed the airfilter. Applied the K&N cleaner, soaked it and rinsed it. a lot of dirt came out although the filter looked not much dirty. left it overnight for drying.
Sunday morning, oiled the filter, and it looked as good a new. watied for oil to soak in (20 mins) and them installed on the bike. Took my wify and daughter for a 130 kms ride to nandi hills. Mostly highway, but i was constantly doing 70-75 kmph and not speeding as my little one was with me. Throughout the whole ride, the jerks were present, regardless of whether the bike was cold, or hot. Infact, it felt like the jerks had increased after cleaning the airfilter.

after riding for about 50 kms, i increased the clutch lever play to see if anything thing gets affected, but no visible difference anywhere.

today morning, i somehow managed to increase the PRM. twisted the body, and inserted a flat screw driver at an angle, and rotated the IDLING screw ANTICLOCK direction by about 60-70 degrees. Went for a small test ride (about one km) and was pleasantly surprised not to get any jerks.

Although it was just a km ride, i did get positive feel about this. I even felt slight increase in pickup response after increasing the RMP.

However, i feel that i have increased the idling RMP way too high, when i compare to my previous idling RMP.

A FEW QUESTIONS I HAVE: What could the repercussions of a high idling bike? How could the idling be related to producing jerks?

Tried catching the sound on a video using the phone cam. Do hear it and let me know your thoughts.

(Its a zipped file as original was not uploading. u can download it, unzip it and play using windows media player)
Attached Files
File Type: rar Video0008.rar (313.6 KB, 220 views)

Last edited by nasirkaka : 28th February 2011 at 12:25.
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Old 28th February 2011, 14:18   #1357
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasirkaka View Post
@ Randhawa:

Some updates:

Saturday night i removed the airfilter. Applied the K&N cleaner, soaked it and rinsed it. a lot of dirt came out although the filter looked not much dirty. left it overnight for drying.
Sunday morning, oiled the filter, and it looked as good a new. watied for oil to soak in (20 mins) and them installed on the bike. Took my wify and daughter for a 130 kms ride to nandi hills. Mostly highway, but i was constantly doing 70-75 kmph and not speeding as my little one was with me. Throughout the whole ride, the jerks were present, regardless of whether the bike was cold, or hot. Infact, it felt like the jerks had increased after cleaning the airfilter.

after riding for about 50 kms, i increased the clutch lever play to see if anything thing gets affected, but no visible difference anywhere.

today morning, i somehow managed to increase the PRM. twisted the body, and inserted a flat screw driver at an angle, and rotated the IDLING screw ANTICLOCK direction by about 60-70 degrees. Went for a small test ride (about one km) and was pleasantly surprised not to get any jerks.

Although it was just a km ride, i did get positive feel about this. I even felt slight increase in pickup response after increasing the RMP.

However, i feel that i have increased the idling RMP way too high, when i compare to my previous idling RMP.

A FEW QUESTIONS I HAVE: What could the repercussions of a high idling bike? How could the idling be related to producing jerks?

Tried catching the sound on a video using the phone cam. Do hear it and let me know your thoughts.

(Its a zipped file as original was not uploading. u can download it, unzip it and play using windows media player)
Good thing. Can you please post the pic of idleing screw? Just to confirm.
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Old 28th February 2011, 15:14   #1358
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

@Nasir- Only negative side to high RPM is increased fuel consumption and nothing else.

Positive side effects are better cold starting and decreased jerks. You will never be able to get rid of the jerks on a UCE unless you go for a carb.

I had explained Pratik yesterday in detail about the jerk fundamentals on a UCE and to what extent we can reduce it.

Some of the reasons behind the jerks.

1. While running under 60, our engine gets to the leanest mixture and its so lean that engine struggles to breath properly and propel the bike ahead while its barely breathing.
2. Absence of any sort of flywheel to keep the crank inertia going and any sudden variation in EFI results in engine dropping power.
3. Response time of EFI correlating with TPS gives that sudden jerk
4. Slack in gears + response time of ECU + too lean mixture = Jerks

How can you avoid it to some extent

1. By maintaining healthy RPM it can be reduced to some extent
2. Fuel above 4L in tank
3. Avoid riding too slow for a longer duration so it does not gets too lean although there is not much you can do here because of the traffic or roads which not always allows you to do it and also when the weather gets hotter, the mix starts going to lean.

You may ask why we don't feel any slack in cars equipped with EFI!- My explanation is;

Cars have more pistons and shorter stroke. It has a flywheel to take care of the inertia. No primary chain to transmit power to gearbox, lesser power loss in gear terrain. Rubber engine/gearbox mountings.

I hope you got your answers you were looking for.

Checked out your RPM and its wee bit high. Just try rotating the idle screw to 2-3mm more anti-clockwise. You are very close to getting it right. The reason you got more jerks after the cleaned up filter is due to more air going in but not much increase in fuel caused more jerks.

@Hemant look at page 22.
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Old 28th February 2011, 16:10   #1359
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

We have a honda city, and she jerks too..........Keihin EFI I guess........!!
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Old 28th February 2011, 16:42   #1360
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
..
2. Absence of any sort of flywheel to keep the crank inertia going and any sudden variation in EFI results in engine dropping power.
...
Cars have more pistons and shorter stroke. It has a flywheel to take care of the inertia.
There's a fundamental difference between crankshaft of motorcycles and cars. In most cycle engines the two Discs itself (of the crank assembly) forms the flywheel part where as in cars, the crank assembly does not have discs but only crank (counter) weights along its length & so an external one. In bikes, the alternator magnet adds to flywheel effect as well.

When mech's says increasing crank weight, what actually is done is increasing the flywheel weight.

May be super bikes differ. All because of tech terminologies.
Quote:
.. gear terrain..
gear Train

-

Last edited by Rennjit : 28th February 2011 at 16:47.
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Old 28th February 2011, 18:38   #1361
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

@Bradhey- I dont know if Honda has a Keihin ECU but anyways it should not have the jerks, could be due to clutch or any other issue.

@Rennjit- (Source-Wiki) so not to confuse others in my lay man terms. A flywheel is a mechanical device with a significant moment of inertia used as a storage device for rotational energy. Flywheels resist changes in their rotational speed, which helps steady the rotation of the shaft when a fluctuating torque is exerted on it by its power source such as a piston-based (reciprocating) engine, or when an intermittent load, such as a piston pump, is placed on it.
Flywheels can be used to produce very high power pulses for experiments, where drawing the power from the public network would produce unacceptable spikes. A small motor can accelerate the flywheel between the pulses.
Recently, flywheels have become the subject of extensive research as power storage devices for uses in vehicles and power plants.

The crankshaft, sometimes casually abbreviated to crank, is the part of an engine which translates reciprocating linear piston motion into rotation. To convert the reciprocating motion into rotation, the crankshaft has "crank throws" or "crankpins", additional bearing surfaces whose axis is offset from that of the crank, to which the "big ends" of the connecting rods from each cylinder attach.
It typically connects to a flywheel, to reduce the pulsation characteristic of the four-stroke cycle, and sometimes a torsional or vibrational damper at the opposite end, to reduce the torsion vibrations often caused along the length of the crankshaft by the cylinders farthest from the output end acting on the torsional elasticity of the metal.

You really can't have benefits of flywheel from just a crank and term crank as crank cum flywheel. C5 crank weight 9kg where as magneto hardly weights 1/2kg, do you really think that would help.

Crank can never be as good as flywheel because it does not store energy without being effected by any other element.

If we had more smarter people like you then World would have been a better place to live in.

Last edited by Randhawa : 28th February 2011 at 19:17.
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Old 28th February 2011, 19:09   #1362
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Hey, reduced the idling RPM a bit and went for a small ride. As u mentioned, the jerks frequency is reduced, but not completely gone. Hope with the use of EFI/engine decarboniser, it should get better. Planing to return the WYNNS and look for alternatives.

Last edited by nasirkaka : 28th February 2011 at 19:12.
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Old 28th February 2011, 19:27   #1363
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

If its gone to the old standards when you got used to the jerks then good otherwise play around a bit more until you feel right. No harm in playing around and you will learn more about your bikes behavioural problems and set it right by yourself.

Just try the Wurth de-carbonizer. The one you want will have Benzil additive written on it and its around Rs400. Although its expensive but considering the no of options, this is the best product. Call this no Tel. No. (91) 44 25323456 to find the distributor of Wurth in Bangalore and if you are unable to find it then I'l get the address for Bangalore from the Wurth dealer from here.

Or you can weight a bit for feedback after I use it.
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Old 28th February 2011, 20:20   #1364
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Sure,

Let us know your opinion of the Wuruth after u have used.

I think my bikes idling was set too low initially. The beat frequency was almost similar to my machismo, whereas i have heard the UCEs are generally idle at higher RPM compared to AVLs /CIs. Am keeping a tab on the mileage. Lets see how much i get with the current setup.

As of now things are better then before.
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Old 28th February 2011, 20:55   #1365
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Default Re: Royal Enfield 500 Classic 4100 km Ownership Review

Set idle RPM for CI is 700 and UCE 1000-1050RPM. Thats 300 RPM difference and it'a a lot for our C5. Now your cold starting should improve too.

Will report back in couple of weeks time on Wurth.

Contrary to common belief of high octane should be used only for high compression engines. Go through this thread and you will be surprised, considering how much adulterated fuel we get in India. Fuel Injector & Valve Cleaner / Lube for Motorcycle ?
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