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Old 14th April 2010, 21:57   #1
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Default Attention: Bulleteers with Cast Iron/AVL engines with electric starters

Royal Enfield recommends 420ml of oil in the primary case(clutch case). While this is the right amount of oil for a CI/AVL Bullet without a electric start, it is insufficient for Bullets with electric starters. The reason being the fact that bullets with electric starters need more oil to lubricate the sprag clutch bearings and gear assembly for the electric start.

Bulleteers in the UK and the USA have been instructed by their dealers to use 1 liter of oil in the primary case since a large number of sprag bearing failures have been attributed to lack/insufficient lubrication. So, far the Bulleteers abroad have been following this advisory with good results.

As far as my little knowledge goes, Royal Enfield India for it's part has not circulated this advisory in India neither through the dealers nor through any means of communication, amongst the large number of owners who own electric start equipped CI/AVL Bullets.

I had a word with a well known and highly respected Royal Enfield dealer and mechanic from the US of A, who strongly advised the usage of 1 liter of oil in the primary case. Hence, I thought I'd let fellow bulleteers know about this as this could save many sprag clutch/electric start failures which otherwise could have resulted due to the lack of sufficient lubrication.

Note: This advisory does not apply to the Unit Construction Engined(UCE) bullets.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 14th April 2010, 22:26   #2
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Hey jay a dumb question. how about the bikes without the self can we also increase the oil like instead of the 420 a bit more.
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Old 14th April 2010, 22:30   #3
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This sounds ridiculous.

Dont miss-understand, I am not saying Jay is giving any wrong info.

If the above is what is required to sort the issue. What was RE thinking?

I have no experience with the ES Bullets, but the ES assembly had no lubrication system in place??
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Old 14th April 2010, 22:54   #4
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Spitfire,

Which is why I have sought clarification from REs end to no avail. Hence, I thought of posting. I hope RE replies soon enough so that the ambiguity surrounding this issue can be eliminated.

About your question about the ES system's lubrication, it relied completely on the clutch oil for lubrication, the quantity(420ml) of which hasn't been enough to lubricate the sprag bearing and the gearing of the ES. All the US bulleteers including the top mechs who ride ES bullets attest to this fact.

Amber,

Up to 500ml shouldn't be an issue on the CIs without ES. Also ATF has been known to lubricate much better than the 20W50 blend, especially on the non ES bullets as it helps prevent clutch plate wear better than the 20W50 lubes. On the ES bullets, ATF has been suspect as it's anti friction properties are said to prevent the engaging of the sprag properly on a few occasions.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 15th April 2010, 07:08   #5
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desideep, why do you want to use more oil in a non ES bullet? Its not going to help anything. More oil is gonna create more drag which is going to -vely affect efficiency & performance.
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Old 15th April 2010, 09:01   #6
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Thank you for your input Jay. I just had a question. Using more oil than recommended at times results in the packings, O rings and oil seals etc leaking/bursting when they are unable to bear the extra pressure of the oil. 500ml over 420 ml sounds ok as it is a 20% difference, but 1 liter over 420ml?? Have you or anybody tried this in reality to check if the other components mentioned above hold well?
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Old 15th April 2010, 09:07   #7
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@Jay,

While I have stopped attended to Sprag problems. .this is news.

While you are exploring this angle,
1. please can you also explore how will 1 lt. of Oil in the same oil sump

As I have seen a peculiar problem in my CI 500 ES, Cold Oil if it is up to the Max of the Dip Stick level .. the plugs foul up for.

From the time I have been maintaining the mid mark of the dip stick level.. soot formation is reduced.

Thsi is interesting, please share your thesis with fellow RE fellows.

Cheers!
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Old 15th April 2010, 11:16   #8
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Interesting bit of information. I am meeting my mech this evening to pick up my std 350, will ask him about this. My cousin has the LB500 AVL, so this should be of interest to him as well. Thanks for the heads-up.

Sriku
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Old 15th April 2010, 11:57   #9
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Per Jay's recommendation, I had RE service center add 1 Ltr oil into the clutch case, since I was getting the clutch springs/plates examined on my LB500. The clutch case is huge and there was no problem fitting 1 Ltr in it. I am yet to drive my bike around to report any changes.

I was surprised that there was very little oil in the clutch case when it was first opened up. Definitely did not seem like 420ml. The RE service center said they had never added a litre oil before nor have they received any advisory from RE about this.
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Old 15th April 2010, 13:45   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Thank you for your input Jay. I just had a question. Using more oil than recommended at times results in the packings, O rings and oil seals etc leaking/bursting when they are unable to bear the extra pressure of the oil. 500ml over 420 ml sounds ok as it is a 20% difference, but 1 liter over 420ml?? Have you or anybody tried this in reality to check if the other components mentioned above hold well?
Of course, as Sankar Cheta has rightly said, more oil could cause more drag and also could put more load on the primary case gasket. But, this evidently hasn't been the case with American and English bulleteers who have been running 1 Liter of primary case oil in their ES bullets with no side effects. As I said earlier, a top RE dealer and mech in USA has recommended this and I think we have to go with his word on this issue.

Also RE has recommended doubling of the primary case oil to 840cc/ml in ES Bullets abroad. This advisory hasn't been issued in India for reasons best known to RE. Meanwhile, I am awaiting a response from RE, who haven't bothered to reply to my second email too.

Shivshanker,

The older bullets(Pre 2002) didn't have valve oil seals and thus there was this issue of oil burning especially during start up. This sometimes would lead to fouled spark plugs. This might be the reason for your fouled spark plug.

Cheers,

Jay

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 15th April 2010, 20:22   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Amber,

Up to 500ml shouldn't be an issue on the CIs without ES. Also ATF has been known to lubricate much better than the 20W50 blend, especially on the non ES bullets as it helps prevent clutch plate wear better than the 20W50 lubes. On the ES bullets, ATF has been suspect as it's anti friction properties are said to prevent the engaging of the sprag properly on a few occasions.

Cheers,

Jay
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
desideep, why do you want to use more oil in a non ES bullet? Its not going to help anything. More oil is gonna create more drag which is going to -vely affect efficiency & performance.
To be true with you Sankar i dont know what made me ask this. hehehe. but i am loving the Pulsar
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Old 15th April 2010, 20:57   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
I hope RE replies soon enough so that the ambiguity surrounding this issue can be eliminated.
Hey Jay, thanks for getting this solution on here.

Also you say there is already an advisory gone out to the dealers abroad. I think this doubling of oil - 840ml is not a technically thought out solution to the lubrication issue.

Do you have a cutout of the engine oil flow for these bullets? Would be interesting to see the changes done compared to the olders non ES cases.

But I think there shouldnt be any change.
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Old 15th April 2010, 21:10   #13
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Most of the mechs in Mangalore have been filling 750ml oil since years. Maybe they knew of this problem!

OT: what is the total amount of oil that goes into the engine, gearbox and clutch side? 3L?
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Old 16th April 2010, 14:23   #14
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Well this is a good piece of information and may turn out to be true and relevant. As far as i know the first lot of LB500s had many issues, and one of the major issue was with ES. And i know quite a few people who reported that the ES bearings have gone for toss at least 2-3 times in a year or two. Each set will cost around 3.5k. So many of them have taken off the ES. So with this, the above information looks relevant. However, in between RE had stoped the production of LB500s for about 3-4 months primarily to fix these issues. And the second lot which came, is neat. and apparently there is no issue with ES any more. None reported by owners from second lot.

My LB is from 2nd lot, so far no issues.
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Old 16th April 2010, 19:13   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throttleking View Post

My LB is from 2nd lot, so far no issues.
I agree, Even my LB is running perfectly fine. I have had absolutely no issues atleast with the ES. As far as the oil is concerned for clutch case i have been keeping a close watch and i ask the mechanics to use 500 ml everytime i get my baby serviced. It would be nice if we could have more info about the same though.
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