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Old 23rd April 2010, 00:36   #1
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Default Used YZF-R-15 or P220-S? (...and some more dilemma!)

Its been quite sometime I have been postponing my bike buying decision but now that its for pretty much sure that I'll be going ahead with the purchase next month, another and a bigger hurdle comes my way.


I have a budget of around 1 lac. So the obvious choices are the 220s,ZMR,R-15 and some less obvious choices are RE 500 classic (thats probably as far as I can stretch), used comets (hard to find, spares harder to get) , used ZMAs, Fazer and er...my girlfriend as usual brings the "safety issue" and suggests a NANO!!


My requirements (Highest to lowest priority) are:

1) High performance (by regular Indian standards)
2) Good handling and braking
3) Highway stability
4) Reliability
5) Looks and equipment
6) FE


The bike will be used in city, though I intend to do a fair amount of touring as and when circumstances allow.
I do not intend to perform stunts of any kind.



Now, coming to the main issue,

1)a good friend just checked out a R15 for sale.
The bike is in good condition with few minor scratches on the black paint. The sweetener is that it has done only about 1300 kms which is next to nothing.

The price is about 80000 bucks and I intend to haggle the seller a fair bit so that he drops it further by a couple of Ks.
Also, it will leave me with a fair amount of spare cash to splurge on 'race kit' which some trusted tuner is offering at around 25000 bucks. The bike is expected to clock a sub 10 second run to 100kmph with the aforementioned kit.

Now here is where the problem starts. First of all, am not too keen for the add on race kits as I suspect their reliability and long term impact on the mechanical bits. Also, I am not too willing to fiddle with the bike's stock ECU settings, reason being the lack of tech support from the service centres.

Am not impressed with the power of the stock R15 and so am sure I'll keep on cribbing about lack of outright power all the time. So, that quite rules out the option of a new R-15 as well.

However, I understand that R15 is a great bike for beginners who intend to polish their riding skills and that keeps me hooked to it.


2)The second option is the 220-Streetfighter. I for once think that Sleeper is more apt than Streetfighter as the latter suits FZ more than anything else.
Anyways, what's in a name and the real reason for thinking about 220-s over the faired model is the near 4 kgs of weight advantage.
Though I'll miss the excellent projector lamp on 220F which I guess is a boon for touring.
Also,I'll have to dump the main stand for really diving into corners and coming out of them not being embarrassed.

It being cheaper means I wont be buying a 'Second-hand' bike and will have lots of cash left for riding gear and a K&N filter with a good aftermarket exhaust (availability/existence of which is a suspect though).

Now, the trouble is that the 220 is essentially based on a near decade old bike and no matter how improved and faster it is, its age shows.

And if that's not enough, going by the new 135-LS am quite sure that the upcoming series of pulsars will be quite radical and so I'll be left with a last-gen bike then which may also affect the resale.



3) I DO NOT like the ZMR because neither it has the performance nor dynamics for the price its asking.


4) Again, the 500 classic is not exactly within my budget and even if I manage to buy it I will have nothing left for my riding gear except a helmet and a pair of gloves.
Plus, REs have never appealed to me the way the R15/220 have (Proud RE owners please pardon, no offence meant) though I seemed to like the 500, the only time I rode it for about 20Kms.


5)The ZMA/ZMA-R is a comfy tourer and I have thought about it a bit. Buying a used example for around 50K and later upgrading when a package that has punch of 220 and dynamics of the YAM arrives in the market. But the latter seems a far-fetched dream, does not it?


6) From what I have seen and heard its easier qualifying in CAT than buying a used Comet in good condition and maintaining it with ease.


7) Lets leave the girlfriend and the nano out of the scenario. I would rather walk than use that home appliance (the nano,i meant).



My search for a balanced solution will continue for around a month more (maybe lesser) and based on the suggestions I get I'll go ahead for something.

Suggestions will be really welcomed.

Last edited by YC.BALENO.CHD : 23rd April 2010 at 00:45.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 00:41   #2
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Akkha band kar ke get a Pulsar 220. the R15 you have to keep it in high revs to keep it running when in hills this is what i have heard. Classic i dont know man but i am sure that you may not be able to relate to it it may sound that it is fast and all but again a bullet is a bullet it will come with its own set of problems and all.
ZMA is good but if you find a second hand good example which is possible in chandigarh. but then again if you want to buy a bran new stop think and go buy a pulsar cause it is a better package in almost the same money actually less money
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Old 23rd April 2010, 00:54   #3
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Ok let me say just one thing, GET THE RTR 180, its a great city rider, but if you still want a R15 or a P220, then i would say the P220 F not S.
The R15 has all its powers up in the top end where as the 220 has it all along.
The R15 with a race kit (overpriced) would increase the low end but not as good as a 220cc bike.
Now between the S and F, my choice would be the F, if you would go through my thread you will see that i first wanted a S but once i saw the F i really didnt mind it, i asked around and the fairing just needed to be adjusted with, but the top speed stability is much better and so are the projectors, i could easily zip through traffic after just 2 weeks of riding(not just the F, total) and now i can really zip through like many P200 guys.
The RTR is a compete city killer, amazing 0-60 timings, even better 0-100, and the best roll on figures.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 01:09   #4
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I would second Abhayshanu.

How about the Apache? I hear its a great bike offering decent power and handling. Do give it a try!

Avoid the Classic 500. Too much of a hassle if you aren't an ardent RE fan.

Cheers!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 01:28   #5
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Yes, I had thought about the RTR180, its fast, nimble and that subtle roar/growl (if any such thing exists) from that exhaust is great. But I found it quite cramped for my 6 feet 75kgs frame (surprisingly more cramped than R15) and it vibrates alot anywhere above 80kmph/6500RPM and that resulted in somewhat numbness in my palms/feet.

Also, as far as I know, RTR isn't good for touring though am not sure if 220/R15 may be much better.


Now that one of the members here suggests 220S and the other 220F, am as confused as before.
Anyways, what is the exact price difference between the two versions and does opting for Zappers over those crappy Eurogrips cost extra?
Is 220F faster than 220S despite weighing more due the fact that the F is more aerodynamic?


Speaking about the ZMA, I have heard that its relatively more expensive to maintain than a 220/R15. Things like a mudguard/clutchplates cost a bomb to replace, so is there any reduction in spare prices now that the ZMA is priced lesser than before and also as the ZMR has been launched.


@ESSYOUWE
Yeah, am not an ardent RE fan and till date only the 500 has really impressed me. Though I haven't ridden the entire range (only the Std, Electra and the T'bird). the REs feel quite crude to me.


BTW does ZMR comes with a six-speeder? How much faster is from the ZMA and does anyone has true top speeds for all the bikes?
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Old 23rd April 2010, 02:01   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Yes, I had thought about the RTR180, its fast, nimble and that subtle roar/growl (if any such thing exists) from that exhaust is great. But I found it quite cramped for my 6 feet 75kgs frame (surprisingly more cramped than R15) and it vibrates alot anywhere above 80kmph/6500RPM and that resulted in somewhat numbness in my palms/feet.

Also, as far as I know, RTR isn't good for touring though am not sure if 220/R15 may be much better.


Now that one of the members here suggests 220S and the other 220F, am as confused as before.
Anyways, what is the exact price difference between the two versions and does opting for Zappers over those crappy Eurogrips cost extra?
Is 220F faster than 220S despite weighing more due the fact that the F is more aerodynamic?


Speaking about the ZMA, I have heard that its relatively more expensive to maintain than a 220/R15. Things like a mudguard/clutchplates cost a bomb to replace, so is there any reduction in spare prices now that the ZMA is priced lesser than before and also as the ZMR has been launched.


@ESSYOUWE
Yeah, am not an ardent RE fan and till date only the 500 has really impressed me. Though I haven't ridden the entire range (only the Std, Electra and the T'bird). the REs feel quite crude to me.


BTW does ZMR comes with a six-speeder? How much faster is from the ZMA and does anyone has true top speeds for all the bikes?
I myself am 6.1 ft, and i can tell you this the P220 can be a tourer but not as good as a Zma, it can be a city muncher but not as good as a RTR 180, it can be a track tool but not as good as a R15, basicly its a complete all rounder, which is what i wanted.
Yes the Zma parts cost more then the P220 ones, but i doubt it costs more than R15 ones, the front fairing alone is almost double the cost.

P220 F vs P220 S
Yes the F will provide better aerodynamics but yes it will be heavier than the S, so both can reach almost the same top speed, but the main difference is the feel you would get at that speed, mine just stays planted, not even vibrating, when crouching, but a bikini faired 200 does, at the same speeds even with crouching.
Also as far as i know the price difference is just 3k, mine costed 83k and the S costs 79 - 80k
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Old 23rd April 2010, 08:45   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhayshanu View Post
Yes the Zma parts cost more then the P220 ones, but i doubt it costs more than R15 ones, the front fairing alone is almost double the cost.
the front fairing of an R15 costs Rs.2800

^^No sportsbike('busa isn't a sportsbike) delivers power at low rpm, be it an R1/1000RR that is why dynojets/power commanders are available for them
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Old 23rd April 2010, 09:07   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
Now that one of the members here suggests 220S and the other 220F, am as confused as before.
I would also suggest 220 F over S-

1. The crappy eurogrip tyres on the S, compared to the soft compounds on the F.

2. 4 kg difference is compensated at speeds due to better aerodynamics of the fairing!

3. Pulsars now look dated. However, a 220 should atleast look like a 220! 220S looks similar to the even the 150 now!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 10:02   #9
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Default There's no good one :-)

There is no perfect solution to your problem as there is no such thing as 'no compromises' bike (as of now)

I picked up my bike (R15) by elimination of choices than by volition.

Let's go over your choices (eliminating Classing 500 - with 8 months waiting time, and your home appliance - Nano )

1. P220: Just go over recent complaints in this very forum - Rattles, moving plastic parts, noisy chain etc (as much as to file a case against Bajaj!) - I'd have recommended P220 if I had not read about these issues. It all depends on how long you want to keep the bike - If it is just for a year or so, pick up the 220. It's power would put a smile on your face. Be ready to face a bad resale value at the end of the year though!

2. R15: Solid - Excellent build quality - But no sufficient power at lower revs for city driving. I came back home a couple of weekends ago grinning ear to ear like a Cheshire cat after an engaging drive with R15 around corners, twisties and straight line dashes. My mom was asking - 'What makes you smile like this?' - The bike handles corners like crazy. There is enough power if you know how to extract it. Not great for daily commute in the city though.

3. RTR 180 - I have driven the 160 and was thoroughly impressed. Power across the rev band (2 -> 3 gear was not great, but it could be the bike kept for test ride). I love the looks of the 180 and going by dynamics of 160, this should be pretty neat too! A new RTR 180 should fit your bill! (white!)

4. Karizma - I can never say anything bad about Karizma! It was my previous bike. It is quite old by design and ZMR-Fi is insanely overpriced. I have seen only a couple of them on road. Pick up a plain ZMR if you really decide on this You can never go wrong with this choice. The smoothness of this bike and its awesome LET (low end torque) would keep you happy and smiling for long!

Choice is yours!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 10:21   #10
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If I were you, I would go in the priority of RTR 180, ZMR, R15 & P220-S
Reasons
1. RTR, obviously for the kind of looks & decent power, I chose it first
2. ZMR - Reputation of HH & if you remove the fairings, the comfy of street motorcycle
3. R15 - Technically superb, but to be ridden on track unless I'm a revvy person
4. Bajaj - Good, but pathetic in quality. However, if I were to retain it for less than 2-3 years, then this will swap RTR.

PS - I'm a street motorcycle lover, all the fairings etc are something that I don't want
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Old 23rd April 2010, 11:04   #11
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Dude go in for p220.F os S is your choice.But I have owned the F since october and trust me its not all that bad as some make it out to be.For sheer performance and handling therez pretty much nothing out there in the market that can hold a light to the pulsar considering its current price.
R-15 may be ahead in technology and refinement to a certain extent but look at the premium you end up paying apart from the fact that its just not up there with the P220..
As for the minor niggles, well you gotta make a concession somewhere for the 30grand you save upfront.Routine maintenance is more than enough to take care of the gremlins in the p220.
As for the RE, consider it only if you are a long tourer sort of a person.Its definitely not made for the city commutes.And a little tedious to ride as well considering the fact that its not the most flickable or agile ride out there.Handling is another negative.
Karizma is laughable really and has grown long in the tooth.I mean the only thing good about that bike is the comfortable riding position.But then what's a comfortable riding position without the power to cruise?ZMR is more of an in-house cosmetic mod job with nothing new to offer in the performance depatment.HH needs more than those stupid ads to sell the Karizma today.
N before people start flaming me for the P220 suggestion, I'd like to make it clear that there always is a balance that has to be struck in every purchase decision.Every bike out there has got traits, positive nad negative.In the end its a matter of how we prioritise our requirements.I, for one,am more of a city commuter with the occasional 60km ride thrown once amonth during weekends and have been happy with my decision.

Last edited by octane1002 : 23rd April 2010 at 11:11.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 12:24   #12
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I can see many favoring the 220 and that too the faired version. Yes, the power delivery is fantastic and the riding position is a good match between comfy and sporty.

No, I intend to keep the bike for more than a year (maybe two) and I am quite aware of the issues Pulsars face.

However, If I spend less and go for a good used ZMA (Which I guess I can get for around 55K) I may upgrade to a new bike in about a year.

I understand that nothing like a perfect/no compromise bike/car exists. However, am not looking for one. I mean I do not really care about the fuel economy, equipment (digi consoles/backlit switchgear). Even the looks don't matter much.

In short I want a bike with around a 12 sec time to 100kmph, ability to cruise at around 80-100kmph for a large part of the day and an able handler so that it can help me become a better rider.

Actually the main reason for my confusion is that while the 220 is quite fast for a single cylinder 220cc, its not a great handler. Even the p180 feels more nimble than the 220.

However, I haven't ridden the 220 on a highway. Does 220 produce as much vibes as the p180/rtr180?


Also, the 220 F I rode here for a few kms had Eurogrip tyres. Is there an option between the zappers/eurogrip and does the option result in a price difference?
Does such an option exists for 220 S too?


Between the 220S and the F , with all these posts here the latter now sounds better to me.


@sriram.iyer

I too got hooked to the r15 the first time I rode it. The only thing that really bugs me is the lack of outright power. And somehow I feel that I'll keep cribbing about less power all the time.
AFAIK R15 isn't a very tuner friendly bike (considering lack of good bike tuners in the North) and this is the only thing that stops me from buying the bike.

IMO, the used R15 is a steal at 80K bucks. considering it has clocked just 1300kms. I had read about some 'PSK exhaust' for R15 that frees up a fair amount of power and results in almost 2 sec difference in 0-100 kmph time.
It costs around 6500 bucks so that is not much. Has anybody here tried it?




As for the ZMA, its not just its comfy riding position that I like, but it has got fair bit of power in lower revs, I guess its almost as fast as a 220 Fi in 0-60 kmph.

What I would like to know is whether the ZMA can be made faster without really bothering the engine much (i.e. no porting jobs and stuff).

Will addition of a K&N filter (RC 1100) affect the performance? Also instead of upjetting can the UCAL 32 from the 220 be bolted on the ZMA? How much gain can I expect by all these little mods in addition to removing the CAT-CON?

Is there some good aftermarket exhaust available for ZMA?

Also can HID units be fitted on R15/zma easily?
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Old 23rd April 2010, 13:27   #13
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if you need more power from r15 go for the 165cc big bore kit . also you can go for a FFE and and tuned internals for more low end power .
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Old 23rd April 2010, 13:36   #14
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@Yatharth
Keeping you and your budget in mind

Look no further go for a New R15.
Mods Can wait,and till then you can run in your machine and save up for mods.

Best K&N for a Zma is RC-1060 provided you upjet the Carb with 135-140 main jet.
Dont remove Cat Con,i learnt it the hard way.
I dont think if anyone has tried the 32mm Carb on a Zma.
and yes HID Can be easily fitted,both on R15 and Zma,i have it on my Zma and friend has it on his 15,but with twin HL set up on 15,it turns night into day.

Regarding Custom exhaust for Zma,i can give you a lead,PM\Call me

Last edited by akshay4587 : 23rd April 2010 at 13:40.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 13:50   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post

I understand that nothing like a perfect/no compromise bike/car exists. However, am not looking for one. I mean I do not really care about the fuel economy, equipment (digi consoles/backlit switchgear). Even the looks don't matter much.
I want a no compromise bike, but I don't have one
Btw, R15 consistently gives me 40+ kmpl. It scores in looks department and fairly loaded in terms of gizmos

Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
In short I want a bike with around a 12 sec time to 100kmph, ability to cruise at around 80-100kmph for a large part of the day and an able handler so that it can help me become a better rider.
I just quoted in another thread - I drove about 700 kms in R15 once (350 * 2). Most of the times staying in 110 - 130 kmph. The bike was pure awesome. R15 did teach me a thing or two about becoming a confident rider. There are few corners round my house where I keep trying to increase my exit speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD View Post
@sriram.iyer

I too got hooked to the r15 the first time I rode it. The only thing that really bugs me is the lack of outright power. And somehow I feel that I'll keep cribbing about less power all the time.
Trust me. You have enough power in R15 even without Daytona race kit. I however tuned the engine to 21 BHP, and I am not complaining any more - Just keep the revs high, and so will be your spirit! I cribbed big time about R15 after shifting from Karizma, till I learnt how to use the bike in the way it was designed to drive.

But, P220 is more powerful, and there is no denying that. It would be very hard to beat it in straight lines - It would be a totally different story in curves
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