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Old 11th September 2010, 20:48   #1
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Default Honda Activa Brakes Query

Hi.

We have a Honda Activa, some 5-6 years old. Its brakes are completely conked off now. Takes a long time to come to a stop.

I tell my dad and after a week or so [], he gets me one set of brake shoes from this brand called 'ASK'.

Website : Aluminum Die Castings Manufacturer,Aluminum Gravity Die Castings Manufacturer,Aluminum Die Casting Supplier,Gravity Die Castings India

I ask him, where's the second ? He says that the shopkeeper [Not the A.S.S.] says that front brakes needn't be changed.

Well, I've learnt not to trust shopkeepers too much [Ours is a small town, so knowledgeable men(/women) are rare.]

So what's your opinion on :

1. The Brand, and

2. not changing the front brakes ?

The MRP was Rs. 120/set, if that helps.

In case you think that genuine shoes would be better, I was thinking of fitting the genuine ones in the rear, and the 'ASK' shoes in the front.

What do you think of that ?

And will the A.S.S. fit the aftermarket part ?

And how exactly are you supposed to use the front brakes ? I've been constantly warned by people against using them. They say that using front brakes can cause the vehicle to tilt and throw you off. But they'd be there for a purpose, won't they ? I use the front brakes in combination with the rear, something like 60:40 (Rear:Front) Load distribution.

EDIT : I see the brake linings on the product list of 'ASK'. So can you just replace the lining and not the entire shoe ? Is that advisable ?

Last edited by anku94 : 11th September 2010 at 20:51.
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Old 11th September 2010, 21:29   #2
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ASK pads are pretty good , my friends have used them on their Zma's and RTR's as company parts are exorbitantly priced . they are cheap and decent quality .

use front brakes when vehicle is straight and not in a lean . when in lean use rear only .
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Old 12th September 2010, 08:54   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
I ask him, where's the second ? He says that the shopkeeper [Not the A.S.S.] says that front brakes needn't be changed.
Has the auto parts shop guy checked the existing brake shoe condition? How can someone simply recommend without checking the existing condition of the brake shoes?

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Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
Well, I've learnt not to trust shopkeepers too much
Yes, very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
So what's your opinion on :
1. The Brand, and
2. not changing the front brakes ?
I'm not sure of what Activa uses (though I own one), but getting it from a good H.A.S.S will give peace of mind. There're good manufacturers like Rane, TVS etc.

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Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
The MRP was Rs. 120/set, if that helps.
Not sure; it should be more I guess.

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Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
In case you think that genuine shoes would be better, I was thinking of fitting the genuine ones in the rear, and the 'ASK' shoes in the front.
Always get a good one in the front. During braking, the front plays a major role than the rear. So get the shoes in top form in the front.

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Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
And will the A.S.S. fit the aftermarket part ?
Not sure what it means. Pls elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
And how exactly are you supposed to use the front brakes ?
Pls read owners manual

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Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
I've been constantly warned by people against using them. They say that using front brakes can cause the vehicle to tilt and throw you off.
Once again, read the owners manual; its true & that's the reason the rear brakes also needs to be applied in proportion so as not to skid. There's a huge science on it.

Last edited by aargee : 12th September 2010 at 08:56.
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Old 12th September 2010, 14:45   #4
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Originally Posted by aargee View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
And will the A.S.S. fit the aftermarket part ?
Not sure what it means. Pls elaborate.
What I meant was that if I take the 'ASK' shoes to the A.S.S. and ask them to do the job, will they do it ?

Now that you're saying that I should get genuine ones for the front, I think they probably will install the rears as well.

And since Mr. Nobody has had good experience with 'ASK' components, I think using these in the rear won't be much of a problem as long as the fronts are genuine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Has the auto parts shop guy checked the existing brake shoe condition? How can someone simply recommend without checking the existing condition of the brake shoes?
Well, as I said, they like to pretend they are very wise and knowledgeable in their field, and believe that front brakes aren't there for a purpose [Which, most of the population does, owing to the lack of proper information on them] so replacing the rear brakes would suffice.

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Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Pls read owners manual


Once again, read the owners manual; its true & that's the reason the rear brakes also needs to be applied in proportion so as not to skid. There's a huge science on it.
Time to PM [Read 'bug'] my Physics teacher.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody View Post
ASK pads are pretty good , my friends have used them on their Zma's and RTR's as company parts are exorbitantly priced . they are cheap and decent quality .
Thanks. That was reassuring. But I'll go for genuine ones for front...you know, just for peace of mind.

Last edited by anku94 : 12th September 2010 at 14:49.
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Old 12th September 2010, 15:50   #5
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@Anku - For now you may want to use ASK as you've already bought them. ASK or genuine, use a good one in the front, The maximum issue that you can expect ASK (provided its not good) is that, it will get worn out soon & then you always have an option to replace with genuine or another ASK.
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Old 12th September 2010, 15:55   #6
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The ASK brake shoes and pads are quite good! Ive used them for long in many of my bikes without a hitch!
A.S.S will not fit the aftermarket parts! Spares have to be bought from them!!
Take it to a reputed independent mech and have him check(as in open) both the bakes, front and rear! If the front is worn, change it!! He should be cheaper than the A.S.S as well!

Dont get the separate liners and glue it on!

Cheers!
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Old 12th September 2010, 19:53   #7
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Quote:
And how exactly are you supposed to use the front brakes ?
Drove an Activa for about 3 years. The manual says to apply the brakes in this proportion
Rear:Front::60:40 .

I always used more force (don't grab the lever) to the front or almost equal 50:50 and that worked fine for me. Try not to use the front brakes while making the actual turn, in the process of making a turn. Honda scooters are very stable that even in the Eterno, front brakes can actually be used and I use them.

Quote:
I've been constantly warned by people against using them. They say that using front brakes can cause the vehicle to tilt and throw you off.
If used properly, (even in an disc braked Aviator) you can't throw yourself off.

Also, try to use progressive braking if you have enough runway(or tarmac) left and the situation allows for it.

This is how I bring my Activa/Eterno to a stop at a signal (displaying red):
1.Check mirror to make sure nobody will tailend you.
2.Close throttle and allow for some engine braking.
3.Apply (progressively) both brakes and ease the pressure before you completely stop.In case of my Eterno, the clutch lever will be squeezed before the engine shows any sign of stalling.
4. Switch off engine if you have enough time and apply rear brake lock ! (For Eterno I keep my front brake applied to 'hold' the vehicle.)

For Activa, once in 2 weeks or earlier , tight the nut near the brake drums (Manual will tell you which nut to tight and how it should be properly seated). This will work wonders if your brake shoes still have some fire in them. After doing this, both wheels should be able to rotate freely when brakes are NOT applied and play in the brakes should have diminished.

Last edited by ashwanth : 12th September 2010 at 20:00. Reason: inclusion of an extra point
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Old 12th September 2010, 22:47   #8
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Right, thanks guys. I'll get another set of brake shoes [Genuine if price difference is less than 50%, else ASK] and get them replaced tomorrow. Today being Sunday, no shop was open.

I'm eager to see how worn-out are the old shoes. Will update the thread after the work is done.

PS : I've heard that used brake shoes are covered with asbestos dust. So what precautions should I take while handling them ?
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Old 13th September 2010, 09:57   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anku94 View Post
PS : I've heard that used brake shoes are covered with asbestos dust. So what precautions should I take while handling them ?
Not dust, all the brake shoes are made out of asbestos. Just wipe away the dust, clean the inner drum to dust out & then use the new one; ensure that the cable is released & kept at minimum bolted & the position of original brake drum lever is restored to original position, if adjusted to use the worn out shoes.

PS - I thought you were taking it to a garage to get this fixed isn't it?
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Old 13th September 2010, 12:31   #10
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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by aargee View Post
PS - I thought you were taking it to a garage to get this fixed isn't it?
Oh yes, I just wanted to bring the used shoes back home. You know, for photographing etc. And being an asthmatic, I have to be extra careful with dust-like stuff.
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Old 13th September 2010, 20:09   #11
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Got the rear ones replaced today. The mech said that the front ones were fine. Brakes [ASK, one set] : Rs. 75 ; Mech Charges : Rs. 30

The funny thing is that I'm beginning to think that there was not much wrong with the brakes. I'm not sure if I felt a difference or not. The new ones work fine, but they have to be pressed hard, and I did not do this with my older ones, so can't say if there's an improvement or not. Just don't tell my dad though.

Here're some pics of the older ones.

Honda Activa Brakes Query-adscn1624.jpg

Honda Activa Brakes Query-adscn1626.jpg

Honda Activa Brakes Query-adscn1627.jpg

Honda Activa Brakes Query-adscn1628.jpg

Can anybody confirm if they are dead or alright ?
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Old 13th September 2010, 20:20   #12
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The old ones seems to be perfectly alright Anku, just that the surface is very smooth. All you need to do is, just scrape some of the shiny part & roughen it up & clean up the drum & face it using an emery paper.

The best way to jusge a worn out brake shoe is to by checking the position of adjustment nut. The more the nut is to be screwed, more the wear & tear. Consider changing the shoes only when the nut is to be driven twice or thrice the normal thread & after which the brake lever needs to be loosened & adjusted.
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Old 13th September 2010, 20:38   #13
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Hmm....so I'll keep the old ones for emergency purposes. Thanks a lot for all the advice.
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Old 29th April 2013, 13:26   #14
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Default Re: Honda Activa Brakes Query

Maybe a bit too old a thread, but I've been through this problem a long time back on my Kinetic Honda.

Bad braking is caused by glazing of the pads; brakes don't stop the bike no matter how hard you apply the brakes. Causing the wheels to lock is almost impossible. Poor braking performance.

This happens to people who use their brakes gently causing glazing. (this is not a problem on modern brake pads, but I guess no Indian two-wheeler manufacturer will used the latest tech and I doubt the new tech pads are available in India - at least for 2-wheelers)

Solution (given by the mechanic at KH ASS) brake harder after you replace the pads.

From the Internet: The chemical that causes glazing vaporizes due to heating when you brake hard.
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Old 29th April 2013, 14:11   #15
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Default Re: Honda Activa Brakes Query

Did a lookup again on the Net.

Not sure if the mechanic's advice was exactly right.

Here is the dump from the Internet that tells you all about 'bedding-in' the pads.

Cant tell you how much of it applies to the Activa's pads [seems to depend on the manufacturer and other parameters too]

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/...-in-procedures

TireRack.com: Brake Pad and Rotor Bed-In Procedures

All brake pads must be bedded-in with the rotor they will be used against to maximize brake performance. The bedding-in process involves a gradual build up of heat in the rotors and pad compound. This process will lay down a thin layer of transfer film on to the rotor surface. Following the bed-in procedures provided by the manufacturer will assure a smooth, even layer of transfer film on the rotor and will minimize brake judder. Here are a few things to keep in mind when installing new rotors and pads:

When installing new pads, the rotors should be new or at least resurfaced to remove any transfer film from the previous set of brake pads.

It is critical that the installer clean any rust, scale, or debris from the hub mounting surface thoroughly and check it for excessive run-out with a dial indicator gauge before installing the rotor.

The new rotor should also be checked for excessive run-out using a dial indicator gauge before the caliper and pads are installed. If a rotor has excessive run-out of over .004" (.10mm) it should be replaced.

If your new rotor has excessive run-out, please contact our customer service department for a replacement rotor. Do not install and drive using the rotor! Rotor manufacturers will not warranty a used rotor for excessive run-out. Running with excessive run-out on the hub or rotor will cause vibration issues.

Failure to follow these procedures may result in brake judder, excessive noise, or other difficulties in bedding-in the new brake pads. The pads need a fresh surface to lay down an even transfer film. Residue from the previous pad compound on the surface or an irregular surface on a used rotor will cause the pads to grip-slip-grip-slip as they pass over the rotor surface under pressure. The resulting vibration will cause noise and telegraph vibrations through the suspension and steering wheel. This vibration is known as brake judder or brake shimmy. This is typically caused by an uneven transfer film on the rotor surface or an uneven surface on the rotor not allowing that transfer film to develop evenly. This is often misdiagnosed as a warped rotor.

Bedding-in new pads and rotors should be done carefully and slowly. Rapid heat build up in the brake system can lead to warped rotors and or glazed brake pads. Most brake pad compounds will take up to 300-400 miles to fully develop an even transfer film on the rotors. Following are the recommended bed-in procedures from each manufacturer:

AKEBONO

400 to 500 miles of moderate driving is recommended. Consumer should avoid heavy braking during this period.

ATE

400 to 500 miles of moderate driving is recommended. Consumer should avoid heavy braking during this period.

BREMBO Gran Turismo

In a safe area, apply brakes moderately from 60mph to 30mph and then drive approximately 1/2 mile to allow the brakes to cool. Repeat this procedure approximately 30 times.

HAWK

After installing new pads make 6 to 10 stops from approximately 35 mph with moderate pressure. Make an additional two to three hard stops from approximately 40 to 45 mph. Do not allow the vehicle to come to a complete stop.When completed with this process, park the vehicle and allow the brakes to cool completely before driving on them again. Do not engage the parking brake until after this cooling process is compete.

NOTE: Hawk racing pads (Blue, Black, HT-10, HT-12) may require a different bed-in procedure. Contact your sales specialists at The Tire Rack for racing application information.

KAZERA

Follow the brake pad manufacturer's recommended break-in procedure taking care not to produce excessive heat in the system. Avoid heavy braking for the first 400-500 miles.

POWER SLOT

Follow the brake pad manufacturer's recommended break-in procedure taking care not to produce excessive heat in the system. Avoid heavy braking for the first 400-500 miles.

SATISFIED

For Gransport GS6 Carbon Ceramic Pads

Step 1: Make 10 stops from 30 mph (50 kph) down to about 10 mph (15 kph) using moderate braking pressure and allowing approximately 30 seconds between stops for cooling. Do not drag your pads during these stops. After the 10th stop, allow 15 minutes for your braking system to cool down.

Step 2: Make 5 consecutive stops from 50 mph (80 kph) down to 10 mph (15 kph). After the 5th stop, allow your braking system to cool for approximately 30 minutes. This completes the break-in of your pads to the rotor surface.

During Steps 1 & 2, a de-gassing process occurs which may produce an odor coming from your pads as they complete the break-in cycle. This odor is normal and is part of the process your pads must go through to achieve their ultimate level of performance. The odor will go away after allowing your braking system to cool for approximately 30 minutes.

As with any new set of pads, do not tow a trailer or do any hauling during the break-in period.

Full seating of your new brake pads normally occurs within 1,000 miles.

For all other Satisfied pads

400 to 500 miles of moderate driving is recommended. Consumer should avoid heavy braking during this period.

sourced from tirerack.com: http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/....jsp?techid=85

-----------------------------------------------------

StopTech: Pad and Rotor Bed-In Theory, Definitions and Procedures
Removing the Mystery from Brake Pad Bed-In

by Matt Weiss of StopTech and James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports

In order for any brake system to work optimally, the rotors and pads must be properly bedded-in, period. This process can also be called break-in, conditioning, or burnishing, but whatever terminology you choose, getting the brakes properly bedded-in and keeping them that way is critical to the peak performance of the entire brake system.

However, understanding why the rotors and pads need to be bedded-in is just as important as the actual process. If one understands what is happening during the bed-in process, they can tailor the process to specific pads, rotors, and/or driving conditions. For this reason, we present this generic bed-in overview pertaining to all brake systems, but follow with links to application-specific bed-in procedures to fit most every set of circumstances.
What is brake pad bed-in anyway?
Simply stated, bed-in is the process of depositing an even layer of brake pad material, or transfer layer, on the rubbing surface of the rotor disc. That's it. End of discussion. Ok, not really, but although bed-in is quite basic in definition, achieving this condition in practice can be quite a challenge, and the ramifications of improper or incomplete bed-in can be quite a-a-n-n-o-o-y-y-i-i-n-n-g-g.

Abrasive friction and adherent friction

There are two basic types of brake pad friction mechanisms: abrasive friction and adherent friction . In general, all pads display a bit of each, with abrasive mechanisms dominating the lower temperature ranges while adherent mechanisms come more into play as pad temperature increases. Both mechanisms allow for friction or the conversion of Kinetic energy to Thermal energy, which is the function of a brake system, by the breaking of molecular bonds in vastly different ways.

The abrasive mechanism generates friction or energy conversion by the mechanical rubbing of the brake pad material directly on the rotor disc. In a crystalline sense, the weaker of the bonds in the two different materials is broken. This obviously results in mechanical wear of both the pad and the rotor. Consequently, both pads and rotors are replaced when they are physically worn to their limit and are too thin to endure further service.

The adherent mechanism is altogether different. In an adherent system, a thin layer of brake pad material actually transfers and sticks (adheres) on to the rotor face. The layer of pad material, once evenly established on the rotor, is what actually rubs on the brake pad. The bonds that are broken, for the conversion of Kinetic to Thermal energy, are formed instantaneously before being broken again. It is this brake pad-on-transferred brake pad material interaction on a molecular level that yields the conversion process.

With the adherent mechanism there is much reduced rotor wear as compared to abrasive mechanism, but it's not a free lunch pads now become the primary wear element in the braking system. And even though rotors are not mechanically worn down with adherent systems, they still will need to be replaced on a regular basis due to cracking reaching a point of failure if they are exposed to intense, repetitive thermal cycling. This is why race teams throw out rotors that are actually as thick or thicker than when they were brand new. It's due to the an adherent brake pad transfer layer!
The all-important transfer layer

As stated above, the objective of the bed-in process is to deposit an even layer of brake pad material, or transfer layer , on the rubbing surface of the rotor disc. Note the emphasis on the word even, as uneven pad deposits on the rotor face are the number one, and almost exclusive cause of brake judder or vibration.

Let's say that again, just so there is no misunderstanding. Uneven pad deposits on the rotor face are the number one, and almost exclusive cause of brake judder or vibration.

It only takes a small amount of thickness variation, or TV, in the transfer layer (we're only talking a few ten thousandths of an inch here) to initiate brake vibration. While the impact of an uneven transfer layer is almost imperceptible at first, as the pad starts riding the high and low spots, more and more TV will be naturally generated until the vibration is much more evident. With prolonged exposure, the high spots can become hot spots and can actually change the metallurgy of the rotor in those areas, creating hard spots in the rotor face that are virtually impossible to remove.
Bedding fundamentals

In general, bed-in consists of heating a brake system to its adherent temperature to allow the formation of a transfer layer. The brake system is then allowed to cool without coming to rest, resulting in an even transfer layer deposition around the rotor circumference. This procedure is typically repeated two or three times in order to ensure that the entire rotor face is evenly covered with brake pad material. Sounds easy, right? Well, it can be if you have the proper information.

Because the adherent temperature range for brake pads varies widely (typically 100F-600F for street pads and 600F-1400F for race pads), each bed-in needs to be application-specific. One could try to generate a one-size-fits-all procedure, but too little heat during bed-in keeps the material from transferring to the rotor face while overheating the system can generate uneven pad deposits due to the material breaking down and splotching (that's a technical term) on to the rotor face.

In summary, the key to a successful bed-in is to bring the pads up to their adherent operating temperature in a controlled manner and keep them there long enough to start the pad material transfer process. Different brake system designs, pad types, and driving conditions require different procedures to successfully accomplish the bed-in. The recommended procedures below should provide you with the information you need to select the bed-in procedure appropriate for your application.

sourced from stoptech.com: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedintheory.shtml
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