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Old 8th January 2010, 19:59   #121
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Originally Posted by jingaboysr View Post
On a similar note..

I did a long ride with my CI 500 last week, >1000kms in 3 days. The roads were awesome and I was cruising in 80-90s continuously for 1-2hours without breaks... The funny thing I observed is that though I started my ride with an optimum setting for the tappets, by the time I finished my ride, the tappets got REAL tight, it was very difficult to start my bike once it cooled down. I also noticed that the compression was also very very bad towards the end of the trip to an extend that there was no need to use the decomp at all....

I've seen and heard tappets getting loosened themselves on long rides, but them tightening themselves.. seems a mystery for me. My mech told me it can happen rarely. Has anyone seen /heard abt this?
Sorry to hear about that. Tightening valves means that your push rods are set a little too tight. Very little clearance when hot can cause the valve to not set properly and thus burn. I'm guessing a sticking valve that isn't seating properly. Since, you are having loss of compression, I'm assuming that the valve is definitely sticking as you're saying that the pushrods have tightened up. Loosen the push rods immediately. Also, did you experience any signs of an engine seizure? Meanwhile, what did your mechanic say? Did he open up the head? Who adjusted the valves/pushrods before your trip? If it is the same mechanic, time to find another mechanic.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 8th January 2010, 23:35   #122
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See, I talked about your issue to one Chinmay Dangre, a close friend and an Royal Enfield expert who runs his own motorcycle workshop in Pune.

This is what he had to say: "Well when the valve seat starts getting worn out, typically this issue starts. The compression will be less because valves are not getting close fully(sticking valve). Ask him to check the head. after removing head pour some petrol in both the ports one by one. If the valve starts leaking the fuel that means valve seats need to be cutting and lapping. Small issue but can become worse with time. While working on the seats ask him to check the thickness of the valve. If it is too low then it is better to change the guides, valves with re-lapping with stem seal change.

About, the stem seal, I am not sure whether your CI500 came with stem seals. You need to check that out. Nowadays, the CI Electra comes with stem seals and the AVLs always had steam seals. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

JAy
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Old 9th January 2010, 12:05   #123
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Thanks a lot Jay.

I hadn't done any special tuning before the trip, just checked the oil levels and started the trip. But halfway through the trip, i had got the cables and oil checked up with another mechanic back in Karala. I'd specifically asked him not to do anything with the tappets setting, but not sure if he did some blunder...

I got my bike serviced after the trip, and the mech loosened the tappets, now it seems to be running fine, the compression is back to how it was before, ok but not great....

Regarding your advice about the valve leak, I think I will have to find a day off to sit with the mechanic and check this, i'm not such an expert to do all these tests myself.. :(

I'll get back with results..
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Old 9th January 2010, 12:13   #124
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I have put in a Goldie free flow silencer in my Thunderbird 2005 model. I get loud popping when I cut the accelerator on high rpm's. I have read on this thread and elsewhere on the Mikuni site that this is because of the pilot jet being smaller than what i need. There is a Air-screw on the BS26 carb (that's on this bike) that can be adjusted to make the mixture lean or rich. Will turning this screw to make it rich help in reducing the popping sound on the silencer. I don't want to screw up something!
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Old 9th January 2010, 13:48   #125
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Originally Posted by naveenroy View Post
I have put in a Goldie free flow silencer in my Thunderbird 2005 model. I get loud popping when I cut the accelerator on high rpm's. I have read on this thread and elsewhere on the Mikuni site that this is because of the pilot jet being smaller than what i need. There is a Air-screw on the BS26 carb (that's on this bike) that can be adjusted to make the mixture lean or rich. Will turning this screw to make it rich help in reducing the popping sound on the silencer. I don't want to screw up something!
Naveen,

Usually, your air screw should be turned out 2.5-3 full turns anti clockwise from a fully closed position. This is the ideal setting. If you want to richen it, you can turn it anticlockwise for one or two more turns maximum. Experiment within this boundary till you cure the popping. If you richen it further than that, you risk fouling your plug.

Cheers,

Jay

Last edited by JayPrashanth : 9th January 2010 at 13:50.
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Old 10th January 2010, 05:10   #126
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Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Sid,

The yellowing of the exhaust just near the exhaust is due to extreme rich or extremely lean mixtures. In case of extreme rich mixtures, the unburnt fuel ignites in the bend pipe instead of the combustion chamber resulting in rapid increase of temperatures in the portion of the bend pipe where it is connected to exhaust manifold. In case of extreme lean mixtures, the head sturggles to dissipate head quickly enough, resulting in the part of the bend pipe being used for heat dissipation which causes it to be heated to higher temperatures that causes yellowing. A slightly rich misture or a slightly lean mixture will not cause yellowing or blueing.

You're right about the drop in performance. With loose tappets, you're effectively reducing the engine's performance and power output, which usually shows up as lesser heat generated. There is a downside to this too. Loose tappets over a long time would cause wearing down of the valve train. This, because the valve train components will get hammered into each other because of the increased tolerances.

This, while being harmful to the valve train, is better than being stranded with a burnt valve due to a very tight push rod(tappet) set up. Over the past year, I've met plenty of mechanics and time and again, they deliberately adjust the valves with the clearances on the looser side. There are two reasons for this. The first being the fact that mechanics always want to err on the safer side. This, because no two Royal Enfields are the same and most mechanics don't use feeler gauges to adjust the push rods accurately, instead they rely on their thumb pressures. Experienced mechanics pull this off successfully while inexperienced ones muck things up.

I mentioned this fact about no two Royal Enfields because of the varied clearances that each Royal Enfield comes with, especially those with the pre-unit construction engines. So, the mechanics can't really effectively determine how the push rods(especially on AVL engines) will expand as the engine heats up. Hence, they prefer erring on the safer/looser side. My theory on this matter is that, plenty of bullet owners go on long rides/tours and don't mind minor drops in performance(and resultant long term valve train damage) as long as they get a cooler running engine that will get them to their destinations without any mechanical issue. On the other hand, bulleteers wanting to win traffic light GPs usually want the valves to be set up with just the right clearances as they don't like performance drops. This, imho, is the right approach as they are running the ideal set of valve clearances.

If you are going to ride hard with loose push rods, brace yourself for valve train damage sooner than usual. Therefore, a correctly set up valve clearance is your best bet. Why run with loose push rods when you can manage to run with just the right settings?


Cheers,

Jay
Thanks for the elaborate response.

So, as a rule, the bend pipe will will change colour if the mixture is out of range towards either extremes?

It seems I interpreted the bike's behaviour correctly. But tell me, is the reduced power due to reduced valve lift or slightly retarded valve timing? I believe both are 'symptoms' caused by loose tappet clearance (or pushrod clearance) are both responsible for low energy output?

As for the valvetrain taking a beating, my bike has been running with loose noisy tappets for a long time, including the time when my father was on an all India trip in the early '80s. The valves have been changed a number of times due to different reasons - increased valve to guide clearance, fried valves (once - due to tight tappets) and lathe work in the head causing damage to the seats. The cams have been changed only once about 6 years ago. (Man, did that totally remove valvetrain noise!) The exhaust side pushrod was changed about 3 years ago because the adjuster had separated from the rod. After 150,000 km (estimated; 110,000 km confirmed) I'm still using the original rockers and intake side pushrod. What's interesting is that the old intake side pushrod has bent far less in all this time than the new exhaust side pushrod in 3 years. Isn't the exhaust side pushrod supposed to be thicker? What parts of the valvetrain will give in early and which late?

Oh, I know the difference in the performance between loose and tight tappets. The mechanic in Noida I have to go to once tightened the tappets and the bike accelerated like never before but when I checked the clearance, it seemed there was none. I could not turn the pushrods by hand. Currently, I've adjusted the pushrods such that I can easily turn them using my thumb. (Traffic light GP performance is decent - yes I like to participate in them often when safe.) How do you suggest I set the clearance? Tappets are something I adjust myself. Call me paranoid but I feel that every mechanic except the one in my hometown (who's known my bike for 18 years) wants to fry my valves!!
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Old 10th January 2010, 11:25   #127
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in-between the discussion i wanted to ask some questions of my own

1> After every service my Bull goes into a sleep mode & i have to take it back atleast 5 times to get all the issues resolved at the Company service center. This time too the power was gone, the clatter increased insanely. ( there was almost no clatter when i took ym bike to service) .

2> i took my bike again to the service center and they ( the RE enginner, not mech. ) adjusted the carb. The thump got more airy ( feeble ) and the power went way too low. the speed was there, but no thumpy feel.

3> i took my bike again yesterday, they changed my spark plug, cleaned the carb. ( fully dismantled and put back again ), re-adjusted the CB point & put on a OIl filter ( a glass chamber into the fuel line coming from petrol T. Changed the petrol T for leakage.

Now what the mech told me was that the spark plug was gone bad and carb was dirty due to bad petrol. but now the bike is giving me starting trouble. Even after i warm it up, it just goes off anywhere and then wont start up for no-reason.

Firstly when the throttle was pulled the bike gave a miss beat ( not like a boom ) just like there was no petrol. now that problem has gone. but the bike is not idling. it does idle sometime, but then like before i cannot leave it on idle like i used to do before for 30 mins. or so.

I am frustated with the trouble. the mech. says that the bike will agian come to normal after I ride it for sometime. this sounds fishy to me.

Please tell me guys what should i do ? what can the problem be ? the bike runs fine, when not in a neutral state and the cluth is not applied.

some more info :
Kms : 3900/-
Bike : almost 7 months old.
Petrol : Use normal petrol from the most reputed Petrol Pumps ( tried changing them too )
Model : Bullet STD 350 CI

thanks & regards

Shantanu
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Old 12th January 2010, 22:28   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Naveen,

Usually, your air screw should be turned out 2.5-3 full turns anti clockwise from a fully closed position. This is the ideal setting. If you want to richen it, you can turn it anticlockwise for one or two more turns maximum. Experiment within this boundary till you cure the popping. If you richen it further than that, you risk fouling your plug.

Cheers,

Jay
Thanks Jay. Did richen it a little bit when I went to remove the plug and check, I see that my dum mechanic has removed the toolkit and forgotten to put it back!. Will update as soon as I can check the plug.
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Old 3rd February 2010, 19:54   #129
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Whoa!Such a Long time to answer a querry , apologies
@Beast_of_Burden : I am not able to ride the bike coz , i met with an accident on the 3rd JAN , Consulted two Doc's , bot suggested Knee Arthroscopy Ligament Reconstruction.
Anyways , the sound is awesome , i Had removed the catalytic Converter from the BEND PIPE , this made the the Bike Sound Very Loud
Due to which i was not able to ride it at speeds more than 20-30Kmph , got it reinstalled at Shakil's Place itself for free, after i complained for a very loud sound, he suggested to re-install the Converter and if that didn't lower the sound , he offered to add another Pipe to lower the sound , but it wasn't needed coz , installing the Converter did the trick for me , The sound is awesome : can hear it very clearly coz i am not riding the bike , my friend is and i am sitting on the rear seat :-) .
There is increase in pickup . the the sound is different not like the Short Bottle , its a little of Thump more of a Roar : Rather You can say its a Thumpy Roar .
I am simply Loving it , Dont know when i will be able to ride it again.

Cheers

Last edited by Rehaan : 14th July 2010 at 21:58. Reason: 2 smileys max. Please make sure you read the Team-BHP rules before continuing!
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Old 3rd February 2010, 21:04   #130
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Whoa!Such a Long time to answer a querry , apologies
@Beast_of_Burden : I am not able to ride the bike coz , i met with an accident on the 3rd JAN , Consulted two Doc's , bot suggested Knee Arthroscopy Ligament Reconstruction.
Anyways , the sound is awesome , i Had removed the catalytic Converter from the BEND PIPE , this made the the Bike Sound Very Loud
Due to which i was not able to ride it at speeds more than 20-30Kmph , got it reinstalled at Shakil's Place itself for free, after i complained for a very loud sound, he suggested to re-install the Converter and if that didn't lower the sound , he offered to add another Pipe to lower the sound , but it wasn't needed coz , installing the Converter did the trick for me , The sound is awesome : can hear it very clearly coz i am not riding the bike , my friend is and i am sitting on the rear seat :-) .
There is increase in pickup . the the sound is different not like the Short Bottle , its a little of Thump more of a Roar : Rather You can say its a Thumpy Roar .
I am simply Loving it , Dont know when i will be able to ride it again.

Cheers
@Sandeep - Sorry to hear you have had an accident, I hope you make a full recovery. Glad to see that you are in good spirits, keep it up!

I really have got to audition this goldstar thingy. Meanwhile, if you have read my review of the LB500, my bike has gone all smooth as velvet. At this point I am not inclined to change the exhaust, but who knows, I might be tempted after the audition.

Last edited by Rehaan : 14th July 2010 at 21:58. Reason: Editing quoted post
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Old 3rd February 2010, 22:21   #131
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Sandeep,

I'm sorry to hear that. Hope you are fine now.

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 3rd February 2010, 23:27   #132
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Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
This is what he had to say: "Well when the valve seat starts getting worn out, ...Ask him to check the head. after removing head pour some petrol in both the ports one by one. If the valve starts leaking the fuel that means valve seats need to be cutting and lapping. JAy
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingaboysr View Post
Regarding your advice about the valve leak, I think I will have to find a day off to sit with the mechanic and check this, i'm not such an expert to do all these tests myself.. :(I'll get back with results..
An old dodge here to find out without removing the cylinder head. Get a adaptor same threads as the sparkplug and able to accept a plastic pipe on the other end. Take off the plug and thread this in with the pipe. Kick the engine so that both exhaust and inlet valves are closed. Light a cigarette and blow smoke into the pipe. If you see smoke coming out of the carb or exhaust ( guess you will have to pull put the bend pipe here) then you know the valve/s are leaking
Best

Last edited by deutscheafrikar : 3rd February 2010 at 23:32.
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Old 4th February 2010, 00:08   #133
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@Beast_of_Burden & @JayPrashanth Thanks Guys ,

Just collected the Goldstar Silencer today for My Manager's Electra , after placing the order a month ago , have given it for Chrome Plating ,

Just For Info , I had a Ligament Reconstruction in Nov 2008 of the Left knee and now its the Right Knee ,

lets Hope i should be riding soon

Cheers
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Old 12th February 2010, 22:39   #134
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Thanks Jay. Did richen it a little bit when I went to remove the plug and check, I see that my dum mechanic has removed the toolkit and forgotten to put it back!. Will update as soon as I can check the plug.

Finally managed to get a spark-plug spanner. Ran the bike on the Goldie free flow and still have the popping sound. I had earlier made it richer by turning the air-screw to the left. Checked the plug and can see a little black soot on the edges of the plug but whitish sort of soot on the plug's contacts. Lean?
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Old 13th February 2010, 10:43   #135
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Finally managed to get a spark-plug spanner. Ran the bike on the Goldie free flow and still have the popping sound. I had earlier made it richer by turning the air-screw to the left. Checked the plug and can see a little black soot on the edges of the plug but whitish sort of soot on the plug's contacts. Lean?
Naveen,

Some more experimenting with richening should cure the popping as it is more of a trial and error procedure. Keep a spare plug handy lest you foul one.

Cheers,

Jay
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