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Old 6th March 2011, 19:54   #1
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Default ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

We are about to see the launch of two (relatively) affordable bikes with ABS: - the Honda 250, and the Apache variant.

Going through the (very scanty) literature available, it seems that there is a major difference in the philosophy behind the two implementations. We would like to understand the thought process behind these decisions.

If we take as the starting point the ABS implementation in cars, maybe we can start off by discussing whether the bike ABS is just a 2 channel car system, or something different. And why?

Inputs from all TBhpians eagerly awaited.

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Sutripta
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Old 6th March 2011, 20:12   #2
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

ABS in case of bikes is purely a mechanical unit unlike the cars which have seperate ecu,wheel sensors etc.i dont know the exact internal working of the unit.my friend who has a pulsar installed it as a add on.its installed on the caliper assembly.
Will try and source the detailed info on it soon.
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Old 6th March 2011, 20:20   #3
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

The Saferide system is misrepresented as ABS. Though useful on a bike with grabby front brakes and a novice rider.

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Old 6th March 2011, 22:13   #4
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
If we take as the starting point the ABS implementation in cars, maybe we can start off by discussing whether the bike ABS is just a 2 channel car system, or something different. And why?
I'd imagine (or i should say guess) that for one, the bike ABS system is a lot less aggressive with the modulation of the pressure on the brakes, as unlike 4-wheelers, the 2-wheelers just don't have the inherent stability to handle a wheel coming close to locking up several times a second. Views?

Its almost as if the bike ABS system is about maximizing brake force, while preventing the wheel from ever locking up :



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
The Saferide system is misrepresented as ABS....
How does this mechanical system work?
Does it pulse or does it just limit fluid pressure somehow?

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 6th March 2011 at 22:16.
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Old 6th March 2011, 22:45   #5
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

A topic that I too need to learn a lot on. Never been a 2-wheeler person.
Few questions:

1. What does Saferide actually do? It cannot sense wheel lock point because there are no sensors, ECM etc. So how does it work?

2. What is Traction Control Braking (TCB)? What are the principles of TCB? Is this the same as Saferide?

3. Does a motorcycle ABS work only on the front wheel in a bike which has mechanical (wire/rod-actuated) rear wheel brakes? And on bikes with rear hydraulic discs, can the ABS work as an LSPV too? - in which case, just one actuation point should do (foot brake or right lever) - unlike riding conventional bikes, where both hand and foot need to be used.
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Old 7th March 2011, 07:04   #6
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

SST, i too was searching the Bike ABS technology, after booking the 250 cbr.
The two articles has fair info of basic system.

http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-pi...k/eCBS/detail/
http://140.116.240.46/ISAD/files/N18931398-a.pdf
http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article....c-Combined-ABS

Isn't the load sensing valve are used where front is disk and rear is drum and are usually used in heavy vehicles.

Nice topic.

Last edited by v&v : 7th March 2011 at 07:10.
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Old 7th March 2011, 12:34   #7
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
How does this mechanical system work?
Does it pulse or does it just limit fluid pressure somehow?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
A topic that I too need to learn a lot on. Never been a 2-wheeler person.
Few questions:

1. What does Saferide actually do? It cannot sense wheel lock point because there are no sensors, ECM etc. So how does it work?

2. What is Traction Control Braking (TCB)? What are the principles of TCB? Is this the same as Saferide?
Hi,
Let's first close the chapter on the 'saferide' system. Which seems to be similar to the 'TCB' system.

From what I can make out, it is essentially a small accumulator, and very narrow connection between master cylinder and caliper.

If one grabs a handful of brake (panic stop) this device will ensure that the brakes are applied more gently and gradually. In that it will mimic the squeeze gently - shift weight - now squeeze more method of applying brakes. What it will actually do if you are gentle on the brakes, I do not know. In any case, as we understand it, ABS it is not.

As SST and Rehaan have pointed out, I think we'll step back from ABS for cars, to the difference between car and bike dynamics, and differences in their braking systems.

@ VV, thanks for the links. Good beginning, but I think we need more than the companies publicity material.

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Sutripta
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Old 8th March 2011, 01:18   #8
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Here's a pretty decent explanation of the ABS on the RTR 180. It looks like it does have an ECU.

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Old 8th March 2011, 02:05   #9
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

And here is an explanation of how the ABS works on the Honda fireblade, which i belive is implemented in the 250r as well.




edit: one more.


Last edited by heavy_foot : 8th March 2011 at 02:16. Reason: added link
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Old 8th March 2011, 22:35   #10
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Hi to all,

Great enthusiasm guys. However, we need something more than just the company's publicity material. Question is not 'Describe TVS/ Continental, and Honda ABS system' but rather why these are the way they are, how these differer from car ABS implementations, and why,

Given the paucity of information, we are going to pool our heads together, design our own (paper) ABS system for bikes, and as our understanding grows, critique our system against the manufacturers systems (and vice-versa).

As mentioned before, the two bikes have very different philosophies.

Just to get the ball rolling, a few (seemingly unconnected) questions:-
A) How do we brake a car? A bike? Any differences?

B) Car ABS systems have BA (Brake Assist) built in nowadays. Why is it necessary? Would the braking system not function to its full potential without it?

A) How do we detect an about to lock wheel? On a car? On a bike? Any differences?

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Old 8th March 2011, 23:40   #11
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Just check out this site: Saferide claims:
"Eata Group of Companies is a frontrunner in developing & manufacturing precision Automotive Components since 1976. Saferide is the latest among them – A Motorcycle Antilock Braking System (ABS) that helps maintain proper control of the motorcycle during emergency braking situations and thereby minimizing chances of skidding.
Today’s fast moving world needs products that help sustain this pace, preserving the most important aspect of the world – Human Life. Saferide does the same by adding a great extent to safety of Braking System of motorcycles.
In India, We are among the pioneer to launch Antilock Braking System (ABS) for motorcycles. Saferide is applicable to a wide range of Indian Motorcycles having Disc Breaks, viz. Honda, Hero Honda, Yamaha, Bajaj, TVS Motors, Suzuki India and many more…
Saferide – Motorcycle Antilock Braking System (briefly referred to as ABS) helps driver to ensure proper control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations and hence reduces drastically chances of accidents. Saferide prevents wheels from Locking during braking – and thereby minimizes chance of skidding."
Source: Saferide ABS
My point is are they misleading customers by claiming that they are selling ABS like the one on Honda CBR 250R????
And they are selling it only for around Rs 1200 bucks, that speaks for the quality -- Honda is charging 20K more for CBR 250R with ABS???
And ABS as far as my limited knowledge goes only works if you have disc brakes on the front and rear, right??? So to install it on my Bullet 350, I'll have to first install rear discs. Correct me if I am wrong.

Last edited by Leepower : 8th March 2011 at 23:47.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:03   #12
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Quote:
B) Car ABS systems have BA (Brake Assist) built in nowadays. Why is it necessary? Would the braking system not function to its full potential without it?
AFAIK BA is for emergency braking. BA sensor in combination with ECU detects the amount of force applied on brake paddle and how quickly it was done. BA makes emergency braking little more quicker than normal braking.
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Old 9th March 2011, 11:01   #13
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

ABS in Honda or Ferrari should be the same. Isnt it a standard technical jargon? If the technology or the way it works is different, can one call it ABS?

Edit:
From WIki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Seems it can be different ( the way it work and the algorithm used)

Last edited by jkdas : 9th March 2011 at 11:07.
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Old 9th March 2011, 15:22   #14
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leepower View Post
Just check out this site: Saferide claims:
......
Correct me if I am wrong.
Pls. go through the previous posts, esp. #7.
If on the other hand, I've got it wrong, more information and correction would be appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v&v View Post
AFAIK BA is for emergency braking. BA sensor in combination with ECU detects the amount of force applied on brake paddle and how quickly it was done. BA makes emergency braking little more quicker than normal braking.
Yes, thats a collateral benefit. But why was it first introduced? I think it'll provide an interesting insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
ABS in Honda or Ferrari should be the same. Isnt it a standard technical jargon? If the technology or the way it works is different, can one call it ABS?
Car ABS systems pretty much follow the same philosophy. Which is why I wanted to take it as a starting point.

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Old 9th March 2011, 19:43   #15
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Default Re: ABS for bikes: How different from cars?

My question was is Saferide misleading customers??? This is what the company claims "In India, We are among the pioneer to launch Antilock Braking System (ABS) for motorcycles..."
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