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Old 5th April 2011, 02:51   #16
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

^^,@ MPower, you have very politely tried to bring some logic to this discussion. Kudos to that.

I very rarely post these days, but some statements just really gets under my skin, and I couldn't help myself.

Wish people would try to understand the history and the development of the motorcycle industry a little more before making judgments, and passing comments on things like Honda's innovation, etc. Worse still, compare it to Bajaj, Tata, and Mahindra ??!!

Selective googling will only give you specs like bhp, torque and top speed. But there is a lot more to a motorcycle than just these figures.
Any idea what the lean angle of an RD350 is?

And comparing cars to bikes!! Talk about apples and oranges. Motorcycle development and car development works on completely different economic equations. Please google a little bit about that before comparing.

After years and years of government regulations keeping us Indians from any decent bikes, finally now we are getting a world class product at almost the same price (slightly less than some markets even), and what do you know? It's not good enough.

@Tommie, I seriously doubt the CBR250R will come remotely close to fulfilling your desire to fill the RD350 void. I suggest you find an RD350 in the used bike market, which will definitely have the bhp and torque ratings you require, and a good mechanic you can run to who can tune both your carbs so that you can ride for about 100kms, and visit him again, and again.....

P.S. Apologies if I come across as sarcastic, and feel free to delete my post if it offends anyone.
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Old 5th April 2011, 10:11   #17
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

There were Motorcycles (4 cylinder, 250cc) like the Kawasaki Balius Kawasaki Balius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and a Honda CBR 250RR,Honda CBR250 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but as MPower says, European and US markets moved towards the 600's and importantly to GSX-R 750.

All in all the CBR-250R is a decent Motorcycle especially considering the price at which it came for.
Fair and justified pricing is what you say? Sure M-800 retailed for Rs. 48,000 odd, but can you remember that at what price was fuel available then and at what price it retails now?

I would suggest you look at Kawasaki Ninja 250-R, IMO it shall leave even the mighty RD in dust in all departments and shall not let it go in top end and acceleration. In other aspects (handling, braking) there simply is no comparison.

@Nirmal--I dunno what plagues Honda, but at even small place like mine where they have just opened up, they (Honda) have handed the keys over to complete dolts.
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Old 5th April 2011, 10:55   #18
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
I am yet to see or feel the bike in person, but based on what i have seen and heard over the internet, its a NO!
I suggest you wait for Bajaj to bring the Ninja through CKD route. From your posts, it looks to be more suited to you...
Thanks, I too am waiting for the test drive to confirm whether I want to buy the bike or not. I am 6" tall and weigh around 110Kgs. The Ninja is too small for me. I do not want to sit on a hop-town cycle equivalent bike which looks odd. It looks really odd for me to sit on a R15 also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
The answer to your question is that throughout the 80s and 90s small sport bikes were all predominantly 2 strokes. Honda NSR50, Yamaha TZR/YZR250, Suzuki RVV250. By the end of the 2 stroke era they were making close to 60 bhp. When the whole segment crashed due to emission regs, there was no interest or incentive to pursue small 4 strokes. They focused instead on 600cc inline4s which became the new entry level sport bike for developed markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Only now that we are seeing products like R15 and CBR250 tailor made for developing countries.
I guess it not right statement for CBR250R, it might be true for R15. The manufacturing is happening in developing countries so that manufacturers can control the cost. If you see the Honda website, the same CBR250R is being launched in various developed countries. See the flags below in this link Honda Worldwide | CBR250R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
BTW, the bikes that you posted are not going to have the refinement, FE, engine life, dirvability or smoothness that you find in today CBR250.
I agree, most of the old bikes did not have any smoothness or refinement. Engine life I really do not agree for the case of bikes, considering that newer Activa does not have life like the old CD100. See this thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...da-activa.html (Life of an Honda Activa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Not a fair comparison at all. A better comparison would be the NHC 1.5 liter SOHC 8V and it only makes ~68 bhp.
i-DSI engine is not a fair comparison at all. The fair comparison would be the NHC VTec(2004) which makes 100bhp and ANHC i-VTec (2008) makes 118bhp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
They dont want to do that because its not proven that there is a market for it. They can easily do that. Liter bikes are making 180 odd bhp so getting 45 out of a 250 twin is definitely doable
May be true, I might be an odd man who is looking for a better breed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
@Tommie, I seriously doubt the CBR250R will come remotely close to fulfilling your desire to fill the RD350 void. I suggest you find an RD350 in the used bike market, which will definitely have the bhp and torque ratings you require, and a good mechanic you can run to who can tune both your carbs so that you can ride for about 100kms, and visit him again, and again.
I want to buy a bike today which will stay for next 30 years, but it does not mean that I want to buy a 30 year bike. I seriously feel India market need a 600 CC bike. Proabably my choice would have been a BMW F650 if it was available in the Indian market. The BMW F650 introduction to India market was not really in tune with the market demand and the pricing. I would really want to buy it if Hero motors is planning to bring it back again.
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Old 5th April 2011, 11:24   #19
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
Thanks, I too am waiting for the test drive to confirm whether I want to buy the bike or not. I am 6" tall and weigh around 110Kgs. The Ninja is too small for me. I do not want to sit on a hop-town cycle equivalent bike which looks odd. It looks really odd for me to sit on a R15 also.
The Ninja 250R is a bigger Motorcycle than the R15.


Quote:
I guess it not right statement for CBR250R, it might be true for R15. The manufacturing is happening in developing countries so that manufacturers can control the cost. If you see the Honda website, the same CBR250R is being launched in various developed countries. See the flags below in this link Honda Worldwide | CBR250R
The clientèle is entirely different.

Its a learner's motorcycle in US & Europe whereas here it shall be promoted as a performance Motorcycle :|



Quote:
I agree, most of the old bikes did not have any smoothness or refinement. Engine life I really do not agree for the case of bikes, considering that newer Activa does not have life like the old CD100. See this thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...da-activa.html (Life of an Honda Activa)
You got a couple of honest replies over there on your thread.

Rusting has got nothing to do with engine life. Rust in any vehicle starts at places where mud & muck stay w/o any cleaning.

May be that CD got its fair share of washes & waxes.



Quote:
May be true, I might be an odd man who is looking for a better breed here.
You can't go wrong with Japs as far as Motorcycles go and that too a Honda.

The CBR shall be a much better machine than the prevoius Hondas sold in India.


Quote:
I want to buy a bike today which will stay for next 30 years, but it does not mean that I want to buy a 30 year bike. I seriously feel India market need a 600 CC bike. Proabably my choice would have been a BMW F650 if it was available in the Indian market. The BMW F650 introduction to India market was not really in tune with the market demand and the pricing. I would really want to buy it if Hero motors is planning to bring it back again.
BMW was a dual purpose Motorcycle and this is a tourer which wouldn't wish to see bad roads much.

You may be better off in a TDM-900 or KTM's or KLR's
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Old 5th April 2011, 11:55   #20
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Unhappy Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
There were Motorcycles (4 cylinder, 250cc) like the Kawasaki Balius Kawasaki Balius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and a Honda CBR 250RR,Honda CBR250 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but as MPower says, European and US markets moved towards the 600's and importantly to GSX-R 750.
Rightly said, the CBR 250RR was a much powerful bike and better performing bike. Those 250 CC bikes used to produce 40+PS power The 2011-CBR250R is like the iDSi engine model of Honda City.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
All in all the CBR-250R is a decent Motorcycle especially considering the price at which it came for.
Fair and justified pricing is what you say? Sure M-800 retailed for Rs. 48,000 odd, but can you remember that at what price was fuel available then and at what price it retails now?
The M-800 price was quoted as a comparison to the RD350 price. The RD was priced @50% of the M-800 price. Can we say that we now have an RD equivalant bike in 2011 which is selling for 50% of a Wagon-R in 2011? (Considering Wagon-R 1.2L K10 Series engine is the M-800 equivalent in 2011)
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Old 5th April 2011, 13:49   #21
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
The M-800 price was quoted as a comparison to the RD350 price. The RD was priced @50% of the M-800 price. Can we say that we now have an RD equivalant bike in 2011 which is selling for 50% of a Wagon-R in 2011? (Considering Wagon-R 1.2L K10 Series engine is the M-800 equivalent in 2011)
I can't rationalize a vehicle's price. A Ferrari and a GT-R.

The way a manufacturer prices its vehicles is completely beyond my understanding.
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Old 5th April 2011, 14:20   #22
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Thumbs up Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

^

Different vendors price differently. From what I have observed, Honda prices are based on Cost-Margin model initially and then starts pricing at skim pricing model. One must have observed that the new Honda activa cost more than 53K on road(in BLR). Ideally speaking, the captial expenses would have nearly depreciated for the Honda Activa plants and would be profitable to run on pure Operational cost (Raw material + operations).

Whereas Mahindra is value priced until the model becomes premium to charge a premium value. You might have seen that in the case of Scorpio and Xylo. They keep adding small features and create a new model to charge a premium.

Toyota also follows similar model like Mahindra, also called as 'value-based pricing' initially and then pricing model changes to Psychological pricing or Skim pricing.

Tata's pricing is more on Target return pricing, which you might notice why a Safari costs really low now in comparison to what it used to cost many years back.

Maruti has a mixed method of pricing. Initially when M-800 was launched it was penetration pricing, then it was value-pricing, then it was skim pricing when the price was around 1.5-2 Lakhs in 2002 for a M-800. Later in 2003 the price was still 2 lakhs which is more target return pricing.

On the premium cars like Lotus or Ferrari, its a simple case of Skim pricing which is specific for those elite people where the price elasticity does not impact the customer buying pattern.

Honda CBR250R is seen as a cost+ pricing what I have observed. I believe I had mentioned in my earlier post that its the first time that India is getting a international brand vehicle (same model sold in various developed countries) at a cheaper price. . However, I would expect the price to shoot up in an years time once the model is popular and has eaten into the competition (in this case Ninja 250).
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Old 5th April 2011, 14:37   #23
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

^^@Tommie : excellent.. getting to hear the words after a looong time.

i just have one thing to add:
Quote:
On the premium cars like Lotus or Ferrari, its a simple case of Skim pricing which is specific for those elite people where the price elasticity does not impact the customer buying pattern.
the concept of Skim pricing is different and don't apply in above case.
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Old 5th April 2011, 14:50   #24
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
On the premium cars like Lotus or Ferrari, its a simple case of Skim pricing which is specific for those elite people where the price elasticity does not impact the customer buying pattern.
It is not only that. If prices are dropped to levels where the exclusivity is lost, the elite customers will desert the brands.
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Old 5th April 2011, 15:30   #25
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

So it's official that its 25 BHP?
People are claiming it does true 160 kmph and can go further at WOT, how it's possible with 25 BHP bike? Also is this same as its sibling what they are selling abroad or detuned for india?
So RD again came in picture LOL, leave this old vibrating, smoking, fuel guzzler for some old brats, no point comparing with these modern fuel injected, ECM controlled, liquid cooled bikes. As still few are there who enjoys cleaning the carbs, plugs, smell of 2T burning smoke.
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Old 5th April 2011, 15:52   #26
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

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Originally Posted by Ajaybiz View Post
As still few are there who enjoys cleaning the carbs, plugs, smell of 2T burning smoke.
Yes some of us enjoy doing that. That is the reason I did not buy a new bike after selling my GUN.

Any display vehicle available in Bangalore showrooms?
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Old 5th April 2011, 22:48   #27
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Yamaha's response to the 250CC Category.
Yamaha to Launch 200-250cc Bikes in India

Hyosungs also to compete in the same segment. Read more
http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/motorc...al-word-33561/

Last edited by Tommie : 5th April 2011 at 22:55. Reason: Added another competition
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Old 6th April 2011, 06:21   #28
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Superb video CrazyDriver. I counted a 0-100 of around 7.5 seconds which is like a Skoda RS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
I guess it not right statement for CBR250R, it might be true for R15. The manufacturing is happening in developing countries so that manufacturers can control the cost. If you see the Honda website, the same CBR250R is being launched in various developed countries. See the flags below in this link Honda Worldwide | CBR250R

I agree, most of the old bikes did not have any smoothness or refinement. Engine life I really do not agree for the case of bikes,

i-DSI engine is not a fair comparison at all. The fair comparison would be the NHC VTec(2004) which makes 100bhp and ANHC i-VTec (2008) makes 118bhp
  1. The 250 is primarily designed for developing markets like Thailand and India. It will however be sold in developed countries as a beginer/women's bike just like CBR1000 was designed primarily for developed countries but also sold is India.
  2. why not. Forget twin, one cylinder of a liter bike is 250 cc and it can make 40-45 bhp. Google for Honda CRF 250 single cyl comes close
  3. Cant compare a 8v to a 16v VTEC engine..laws of physics. LC greatly enhances engine life. Compare a CD100 to a Twister not Activa

Also realize that the RD-350 was a sales failure because of its cost, maintenance and FE...and was eventually withdrawn from the market for the same reason. So, why would any OEM who is interested in making money try to emulate that. The RX-100 is whats truly a performance machine for the masses.

Last edited by Mpower : 6th April 2011 at 21:03.
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Old 6th April 2011, 08:50   #29
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
They also have a 250 cc Vtwin called VTR 250. Whats offered for India is based on what the public can afford.
1.5L looks very reasonable for a V-Twin, any ideas if these ever make to Indian roads.
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Old 6th April 2011, 20:00   #30
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

Hi Tommie,
The CBR250R is a mainstream ASEAN 250. I don't think it will meet your aspirations. Those will be met, if at all in a 250 4 stroke, by either Yamaha or TVS. But till such time use something that works.

Regards
Sutripta
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