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Old 7th April 2011, 22:49   #46
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Default Re: Honda's 250cc Bike : CBR250R!

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Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
^

Different vendors price differently. From what I have observed, Honda prices are based on Cost-Margin model initially and then starts pricing at skim pricing model. One must have observed that the new Honda activa cost more than 53K on road(in BLR). Ideally speaking, the captial expenses would have nearly depreciated for the Honda Activa plants and would be profitable to run on pure Operational cost (Raw material + operations).

Whereas Mahindra is value priced until the model becomes premium to charge a premium value. You might have seen that in the case of Scorpio and Xylo. They keep adding small features and create a new model to charge a premium.

Toyota also follows similar model like Mahindra, also called as 'value-based pricing' initially and then pricing model changes to Psychological pricing or Skim pricing.

Tata's pricing is more on Target return pricing, which you might notice why a Safari costs really low now in comparison to what it used to cost many years back.

Maruti has a mixed method of pricing. Initially when M-800 was launched it was penetration pricing, then it was value-pricing, then it was skim pricing when the price was around 1.5-2 Lakhs in 2002 for a M-800. Later in 2003 the price was still 2 lakhs which is more target return pricing.

On the premium cars like Lotus or Ferrari, its a simple case of Skim pricing which is specific for those elite people where the price elasticity does not impact the customer buying pattern.
OK, so what's the origin of this information?? Do you have any sources for these? Seems like you are buddies with all the major auto company CEOs and CFOs.

Last edited by Mpower : 10th April 2011 at 20:27.
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Old 7th April 2011, 22:58   #47
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

@Tommie,

I have read through most of your posts in this thread, and am at a loss at what you are trying to say. (In this newly created thread, I should say)

1. Are you saying Honda is not innovative enough because the CBR250 is not powerful enough? Anyone who knows anything about Honda's history knows about their achievements, and I doubt your singular perspective is going to change that fact.

2. Is Honda's pricing your issue? The CBR is being launched at a very competitive price at par with global markets. A first for any manufacturer to do so.

3. Are you saying CBR price will increase in time? Well, get one early and then you dont have a problem. And even if they increase their prices, it is not stopping HMSI from selling their bikes. Go to any Honda dealer and there is a waiting list for almost all their bikes/scooters. There must be a reason for that.

4. Is the CBR not big enough for you? A personal problem, IMHO

5. You need a larger capacity bike? Blame the govt that stipulates that any imported bike below 800cc has to be homologated. Which manufacturer is going to go to the trouble of putting a saree guard on a supersports bike? One of many other requirements for homologation.

6. Upset someone mentioned the CBR is a ladies bike? A fact that you cant change. A learner bike in developed countries will always be called a girlie bike. Well, the HD Sportsters are called girlie bikes as well, but that is not stopping anyone either abroad or in India from buying them. In fact, it is one of the best handling bikes for our Indian conditions.

7. Just to make flaming comments? Well, then, like that dude in Fantastic Four, Flame on, bro.

None of the above? Please enlighten us.

Whatever the case, remember to Ride Safe

Last edited by gthang : 7th April 2011 at 23:07.
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Old 7th April 2011, 23:33   #48
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
@Tommie,

I have read through most of your posts in this thread, and am at a loss at what you are trying to say. (In this newly created thread, I should say)

1. Are you saying Honda is not innovative enough because the CBR250 is not powerful enough? Anyone who knows anything about Honda's history knows about their achievements, and I doubt your singular perspective is going to change that fact.

2. Is Honda's pricing your issue? The CBR is being launched at a very competitive price at par with global markets. A first for any manufacturer to do so.

3. Are you saying CBR price will increase in time? Well, get one early and then you dont have a problem. And even if they increase their prices, it is not stopping HMSI from selling their bikes. Go to any Honda dealer and there is a waiting list for almost all their bikes/scooters. There must be a reason for that.

4. Is the CBR not big enough for you? A personal problem, IMHO

5. You need a larger capacity bike? Blame the govt that stipulates that any imported bike below 800cc has to be homologated. Which manufacturer is going to go to the trouble of putting a saree guard on a supersports bike? One of many other requirements for homologation.

6. Upset someone mentioned the CBR is a ladies bike? A fact that you cant change. A learner bike in developed countries will always be called a girlie bike. Well, the HD Sportsters are called girlie bikes as well, but that is not stopping anyone either abroad or in India from buying them. In fact, it is one of the best handling bikes for our Indian conditions.

7. Just to make flaming comments? Well, then, like that dude in Fantastic Four, Flame on, bro.

None of the above? Please enlighten us.

Whatever the case, remember to Ride Safe
1> Not really. I am saying that the CBR 250 should have been a flagship model to be the best-in-class 250 CC bike currently available in the world-wide market which portraits Honda's innovations and marking the leadership. Honda is def. capable of doing it but chose not to and create a Yamaha RX100 equivalant of 2011. I wish Honda had to offer more than the basic feature that it delivered in 1981. Other comments after my test drive.

2> Perfect. Pricing is good in comparison to all the other 250 bikes.

3> Yes,

4> Perfect. Purely personal

5> May be this is combined with the 4th question which is more personal preference. I always wanted to get a 400 -600 CC bike. I loved the BMW F650 eventhough never got my hand to drive. India really lacks bikes between 2 lacs to 6 lacs in 400 to 600 CC range.

6> Not really. It doesnt matter. If that was the case, I would never be riding an activa

7> Some one provocated me with certain statements without base. I dont care whether this is someone's family business or not. I have a better life than this. .

Nice pointed questions dude...Hope all of you are happy...Chill

PS: Going to catch a flight tonight. Rest after I reach California.
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Old 7th April 2011, 23:42   #49
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

The 250's ARE a ladies/learner's Motorcycle in the US and Europe.

You can check out in Cali, whether as to motorcycles stated are learner's/ girlie Motorcycles or not.

CC's below 250 are for underage riders (the ones who wish to acquire license, probably below 18) through Aprilia 125's, R-125's etc.

Last edited by Sheel : 7th April 2011 at 23:44.
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Old 8th April 2011, 00:32   #50
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

@Tommie,

You answered all the points, but I am not sure I fully understand it.

Only thing I can gather is that you are upset that the CBR250R is not as powerful as you wanted.

But saying that the CBR is the same as a 1981 product is quite a statement. If you are going just by the bhp/torque numbers, like I said before, there is a lot more to a motorcycle than just spec figures. Are you completely ignoring handling(suspension), emission controls, ergonomics, etc, etc.?

Given Honda's capability, do you seriously think they cannot make more powerful bikes? Ever heard of 250cc MotoGP? Any idea the output of those bikes?

What Honda is trying to do is give a best compromise of handling/power/efficiency for a certain price range. Is everyone in the market for a 250cc bike looking for a supersports bike? Will everyone buying one of those be able to handle that much power?

Anywhere else in the world, you could upgrade to a larger capacity and satisfy your need. But this is India. You want more, getting a gray market 600cc or taxed to death 1000cc are your only choices. Hopefully this will change with time.

So, Is Honda introducing a 2011 RX100 like you said? What's wrong with that? The RX was an iconic bike for it's time. Was it the most powerful 100cc bike that Yamaha could have made? Of course not. But it revolutionized the Indian bike scene. Did they have the same sales success with the RD350?

So, does the CBR250 raise the bar for the Indian motorcycle scene? Of course it does. Will it satisfy everyone? I doubt any bike is capable of that.

Many journalists from around the world, many I am sure who have been riding since 1981, think that the CBR is a great bike. Are they all wrong?

I can empathize with your feelings about not being able to get a bike that you really want (400-600 class), but blame our Govt and it's idiosyncratic rules.

At least give Honda credit for what they are trying, and prompting other manufacturers to follow suit.

Anyways, Bon Voyage.
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Old 8th April 2011, 01:07   #51
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

Tommie,

I'd like to get something across. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

I'm not really a two-wheeler guy. I'd prefer to drive a car any day. Yes, I was the one kid on the street that didn't pop wheelies and stand of the seat on his 18-geared Ranger Swing. But I do have a fair idea of bikes and what they're capable of and what they're like to ride.

Comparing a bike that was produced in the 1980s to a bike (that falls in the same bracket) today, is like comparing a b/w television set to an LCD TV. Both deliver the information. The exact same information. Albeit, quite differently.

The CBR back in the '80s might produce the same power that the current CBR produces, but do you realize that it's only on paper where the similarities begin, and end. the CBR of the '80s is probably a completely different bike to the one that's sold today, in terms of feel.

Remember, it's not just what's on paper that matters. Figures tell just half the story. Honda as an automobile company have evolved considerably over the last 30 years. And you can see it in their bikes and cars. They might make the same power, but they're so much more refined, much easier to handle, more economical, better built and more efficient.

Ride an '80s CBR for a few kilometers and then ride the new 2011 CBR and tell us if it's the same. I wouldn't count on it.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 8th April 2011 at 01:08.
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Old 8th April 2011, 05:12   #52
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

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Originally Posted by Tommie View Post
I am little suprised by the Honda innovation. Is it declining over the years. I happen to see an old bike for sale in this forum
http://classifieds.team-bhp.com/buy-...B-250-NA.html/
Your argument would hold some ground if all the innovation was towards increasing CC and power. Most innovation has been towards reducing weight, cost, efficiency, safety, and pollutants.

Welcome to California (- some of the best motorcycling roads). Pick up a copy of last months Cycle World at the airport, they have a review of CBR250. Tons of good things to say about it.
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Old 8th April 2011, 06:47   #53
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

We should take this as a bike between the Karizma and the Kawasaki 250r.

For India I think this is one of the best Bike to get launched here in recent years. I know how many people have been crying for an affordable 250cc bike in our country for years now. And this bike ticks all the boxes with just the right amount of power for most of the India public that will buy this bike.

Most of all with this launch Honda has created a whole new segment. TVS, Bajaj will feel really robbed now lol! Hope this brings in quite some competition from both International and local manufacturers.
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Old 8th April 2011, 21:43   #54
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

Hi,
This bike's engine is a clean sheet design. Does anyone know when work actually started on it? Going through whatever details are available, one can guess as to what the design goals were. But is there any statement from any of the Honda top brass as to what these were, and why they needed a new engine?

Also does anyone have pictures of the 250s combustion chamber and those of Honda's I4 litre bikes? (The FB has similar bore and stroke)

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 9th April 2011, 00:25   #55
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

This link is pretty informative. Honda Worldwide | CBR250R

Cheers,

Jay
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Old 9th April 2011, 22:27   #56
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

^^^
Thanks for the link. But would be happier with something more in depth and more impartial than an advetorial. (The other bhp site has 350+ pages, with lack of quality information!)

One thing which I find really puzzling is the choice of bore/ stroke, considering that it is a mainstream bike, not a sports.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 10th April 2011, 01:45   #57
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
Thanks for the link. But would be happier with something more in depth and more impartial than an advetorial. (The other bhp site has 350+ pages, with lack of quality information!)

One thing which I find really puzzling is the choice of bore/ stroke, considering that it is a mainstream bike, not a sports.

Regards
Sutripta
Here, try this:
Honda CBR 250 R | Engine Design | Motorcycle News

Most of it is technical greek to me, but maybe you can make some sense of it.

Cheers.
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Old 10th April 2011, 12:24   #58
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

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Originally Posted by prasadee View Post
Your argument would hold some ground if all the innovation was towards increasing CC and power. Most innovation has been towards reducing weight, cost, efficiency, safety, and pollutants.

Welcome to California (- some of the best motorcycling roads). Pick up a copy of last months Cycle World at the airport, they have a review of CBR250. Tons of good things to say about it.
I had agreed earlier to all the innovations on the safety, emissions and other improvements such as engine cooling, reliability etc in the new age bike. As I mentioned earlier, I was expecting a much more league apart vehicle from the Honda stable with respect to performance since it is a 2011 introduction. I would rest this case after my test driving verdict.

Yeah, thanks for the welcome. I prefer to stay on a 4 wheeler here especially during my business trips. Today I happen to see some nice M/C'ists rides on the C-1 near Half Moon Bay.
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Old 10th April 2011, 21:34   #59
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

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Hi,
Interesting to see that the above is almost a copy - paste of JayPrashant's link.

Let me try and lay out why I find this engine intriguing. Thoughts in random order.

Honda is the acknowledged master of the petrol engine. And they have a vast portfolio.

Designing a new engine is not something undertaken lightly. So what were the parameters which Honda felt would be better addressed by a clean sheet design, and not an evolution of an existing design.

DOHC, 4 valve, FI, LC, balance shaft - all this adds up to the fact that it is not a cost cutting el cheapo engine. The one (major I must add) cost cutting exercise was the choice of a single cylinder design.

Abroad nowadays, the engine designers optimisation metrics are emissions and carbon footprint. The 4 valve DOHC setup which allows a central SP location, maybe points to this.
But
Are emissions that relevant for ASEAN? And for motorcycles? And see how oversquare the engine is.

No information of the balance shaft. Is it contrarotating at 1x. Or has Honda, with its customary out of the box thinking, pulled something out of the hat?

The advetorial talks of the light crank. Why? The balance shaft will add to the MoI. And in any case, a single needs a large 'flywheel'.

What are the real reasons for offsetting the bore (by 4mm IIRC, which is large).

I could add some more, but it is the bore/ stroke which really puzzles me.

Enlightenment will be appreciated.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 11th April 2011, 20:04   #60
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Default Re: Does the Honda CBR-250 really raise the bar?

@Sutripa, my 2c.
250 singles are usually used on dirt bikes and not so much on road bikes. AFAIK Honda has 2 globally, the CRF250 which is a competetion level motocross engine, RFVC, pancake piston and really high strung .. makes around 33 hp. The second one is air-cooled 225 cc used in trail bikes. Hero Honda uses the latter under license for the Karizma in India.

Looks like they have created a totally new segment with this bike. Single probably to keep the price low but also keeps weight low to enhance flickability in chaotic traffic.
  • FI, offset bore, short stroke, piston coatings and finger followers suggest that FE is a priority.
  • AFAIK, India and USA have one the most stringent emissions requirements and they are probably want one spec that will sell globally.
  • Light crank I suspect means that main bearing diameter is optimized for 25 bhp with no room for further growth in torque. Noticed they have 1 piece ie capless conrods with split crank. Do all the commuter 4 stroke singles have this?
  • Me too quite surpsised at the BxS. Typically even the commuter bikes are square to mildly undersquare but not this oversquare. Wonder how it runs on regular octane.
  • Link says its the same as the CBR1000 but specific power is nowhere close. One theory is that it could done for parts/design sharing. Either that or we can expect a less oversquare 200 cc version later on.
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7> Some one provocated me with certain statements without base. I dont care whether this is someone's family business or not. I have a better life than this. please
All of us are waiting with bated breath for links/sources to support your wonderful insight into the world of automotive pricing
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