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Old 15th November 2012, 14:33   #16
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Let me put it this way. NO one has ever been happy with a CNG kit in an Automatic, unless it's a sequential kit. There are a few technicalities to this, and I had a live example in front of me, the other day at Suraj, where I went in to submit some documents for my CNG endorsement on the SmartCard. There was a Civic there who had come to Suraj and he had clearly said they needed a SGI system since it was an Auto. The fellow thought he will save some money and left and had a conventional kit fitted at another dealer. He was back in a month's time and begged Arun Jain to do something about the car. It bogs down, stalls, hardly allows the engine to rev beyond 3500 rpm, and drives at 30% potential.
This is a warning enough for anyone who wants a NON sGI in his automatic car.
My advice. If it's an Auto, either get an SGI or not go for CNG at all.
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Old 15th November 2012, 14:45   #17
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Thanks Frank. You mentioned the exact same words of what Mr.Jain told me on the phone just today.

I have a driver for the car as its a family and home errands sort of car so a slight dip in performance doesnt bother. What I was worried about was the transmission for the automatic. Since morning I spoke to couple of people and they rubbished it to me saying CNG kit has nothing to do with the car transmission.
They infact told me they have done a Mitsubishi invex and couple of other automatics last 3 years ago on regular kits and they are doing just fine. I'm just trying to get a technical answer as to what can happen or go wrong or not go wrong if we put a regular non sequential kit in an automatic car. Mr.Jain's answer was more of marketing answer than technical - I dont mean to spoil his reputation or anything its just that I need some real technical answer from experienced guys like you all on this forum.
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Old 15th November 2012, 15:33   #18
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

I'll try digging up some information about the Automatic bit later. The fellow who did my Fiancee's Verna and Accents had said that he can make an Auto 'work' on a conventional kit. But later, I realized he doesn't have the expertise nor the tools to install a sequential CNG kit. Which is why he was dissuading me to go for a sequential kit.

Ok, so you are saving 20k on a conventional kit, but my argument here goes like this:
1. In a conventional kit, every time you change the spark plugs or clean the air filter, you need to take the car to the fitter to retune the kit.
2. Fuel efficiency in a sequential kit is far better since there is calculated amount of gas going into the throttle body. The additional ECU emulates the 'injector sequence' of the Petrol injectors and calculatedly infuses gas into the engine without much wastage or power loss.
3. CEL (Check engine light) is something that could occur in conventional kits, esp in OHC. Keep that in mind. Sequential kit is peace of mind in that aspect.

If you take 20 k (what you are saving) and divide it by the number of years(5) that you need to keep the car, then it's hardly 4 k a year. With this 4k, you don't lose much power, the torque loss (which is higher in an AT) is lesser and the number of visits to the tuning bay are reduced. I would say, for peace of mind, try not to 'rebel' and try the unconventional. Go in for a Sequential kit and enjoy the car.
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Old 15th November 2012, 16:34   #19
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
1. In a conventional kit, every time you change the spark plugs or clean the air filter, you need to take the car to the fitter to retune the kit.
I think that's only in open-loop systems, not in closed loop systems.
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Old 15th November 2012, 19:34   #20
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If for such cng kits one has to take their cars after every service as a next pit stop to their cng installers it seems like a major pain in the backside
And I m pretty sure they won't continue to tune our cars for free so more costs involved - so ohc in question I 'll service every 5k kms
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Old 16th November 2012, 00:17   #21
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontosa View Post
If for such cng kits one has to take their cars after every service as a next pit stop to their cng installers it seems like a major pain in the backside
And I m pretty sure they won't continue to tune our cars for free so more costs involved - so ohc in question I 'll service every 5k kms
Tuning an open loop system is extremely easy. It's just as simple as tuning carburetor vehicle. I had posted the complete details on tuning another post (easily searchable). I have run my Alto around 60k kms on CNG with an open loop system. Reason for me fitting an open loop system 2 years back was I didn't want the fitter to tamper with the wires and ECU, hence went for the simpler open loop system. Besides, the Alto has a very simple engine setup, hence the simpler setup as well.

Irrespective, for a higher end car, it makes sense to fit a closed loop system. You save at least 5-10% fuel additionally, avoid the tuneups when you change your filter or spark plugs, etc.

@Gomzi - awaiting your inputs on your Civic CNG conversion. Thanks.
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Old 16th November 2012, 20:58   #22
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Slightly off topic, for those wanting to know how to tune an open loop kit, please read my earlier post here:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2613213 (CNG'ed my 2002 ZEN MPFI : 1500 km's review)

@Gomzi - please share your inputs on your CNG conversion. Would really appreciate your experience / knowledge sharing. Thanks...
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Old 19th November 2012, 23:00   #23
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@Sas, I really have no experience with the installation. I'd planned to buy a used civic AT and convert it to cng, but found a good condition car with cng already fitted - brc kit.
But coming to the discussion of which kit, I'd checked with my local installer in Thane who also tunes the log kit on my wagon-r and he recommended a sequential kit only for MPFI cars above 1.2l capacity. The main reasons IIRC being less impact on pickup and less maintenance.
I can vouch for it, the civic autobox is a work of art. Even with cng, hard acceleration its easy to rev to 6k and instant happiness
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Old 26th November 2012, 13:34   #24
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Just sent my ohc automatic for sequential CNG today ! It will be ready tomorrow , my car had a k&n free flow as well , so if I had to install a regular closed kit , it would mean putting a regular air filter instead of the cone filter. This was one reason for going with sequential and the other of-course to just get the best system for a car like OHC that I intend to keep for few years!

Hello Frank
I spoke to few CNG installers and they clearly told me that those light weight cylinders are not approved by Explosive departments legally , some dealers have old stock and also 'setting' at RTO hence they can do it , they even told me to go and check the website of cylinder manufacturing companies. I did and didn't find any mention of light weight cylinders. One guy told me it's pure marketing to sell old stock 'lightweight' at slightly higher cost otherwise you are bound to question them.
I suggest you have some check done on this as well and please let us know. I m going with a regular cylinder in my OHC.

Last edited by mobike008 : 26th November 2012 at 15:28. Reason: back to back posts. Please refrain
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Old 28th November 2012, 12:49   #25
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

So did you get your car back Frontosa? And who did you give it to, finally.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 21:50   #26
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Hello Frank, yes! I got it done at an installer in vashi whom I knew from sometime. The lovato kit costed 52k with rto work . It's doing good with about 16-17km per kg mileage since last 5 days and about 10% drop in absolute performance.
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Old 4th December 2012, 19:20   #27
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Nice. Similar rates as my install. Hope all is going well. Please publish a review on your install and your car's performance after that
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Old 28th December 2012, 18:28   #28
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Sent my Father in law's Verna last week, since the car was running beautifully on petrol but ABSOLUTELY appalingly on CNG.
The fitting had been done elsewhere. The car had visited 3 mechanics before this to diagnose any issues with the engine or otherwise.
To diagnose a problem like this, one needs a lot of patience, and one could just put their hands up saying it's a mechanical problem, or one could just put the onus on the previous installer, asking us to go back to them, but Mr. Jain painstakingly took the whole issue up as a challenge and found out the culprit, after his technicians dismantled the entire CNG kit, rectified all the mistakes made by the previous installer and replaced the mixer (which was cracked due to a faulty technique of installation)
I am amazed at the performance of the car, since I took delivery of her yesterday and I thank Suraj Autogas for sorting out a car that was on the brink of being sold (due to poor diagnoses by earlier mechanics)

Last edited by frankmehta : 28th December 2012 at 18:29.
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Old 27th January 2013, 18:47   #29
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

Has anyone else also used his services? I'm planning to send my Civic Automatic to him for CNG conversion in the next 10 days. Any specific point which I need to know or need to take care of? Car has just done 30k kms and is in perfect condition.
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Old 19th February 2013, 16:25   #30
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Default Re: CNG Conversion: Suraj AutoGas (Bandra, Mumbai)

I found this website for simple CNG cost savings calculation vs Petrol:

http://www.mahanagargas.com/CNGCalcu...&lKey=Mw%3d%3d
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