Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Team-BHP Reviews > Official New Car Reviews


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th February 2012, 09:38   #106
AWD
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Drivers seat
Posts: 804
Thanked: 217 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
familiar with the vehicle for a week or so to record the mapping between rpms and speedo in your mind. You don't need to look at the tacho after that.
Altis Diesel owners, who have clocked 1.5 lakhs plus on their odo and none of them have such an issue. Do you have any reference thread for this
That's what I said "good old method"! Taking in view the technological advancements(tacho not a big one at that) a Company should offer one. If not standard, then as an option.

With "sudden overtaking manoeuvres I meant, sudden acceleration from low speed. When even shifting gears robs you of those precious moments. These are the situations when you have to exploit the rev. counters. Also those traffic signal starts or when you are in a boy racer mood!

Competition these days is hot, all/most products are good, all boils down to ones likes & requirements. I prefer having a tacho over other gimmicky features, say...stereo, climate control, alloys, etc. What ABS, Airbags are to the passengers, tacho is to the engine! Now we can have an argument, that if you drive slow/carefully, you don't need ABS/Airbags...!

Regarding Altis D, those are of-line stories. 3 people in my circle have experienced dipping oil levels & significantly.
AWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 10:24   #107
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Smile Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
That's what I said "good old method"! Taking in view the technological advancements(tacho not a big one at that) a Company should offer one. If not standard, then as an option.
With "sudden overtaking manoeuvres I meant, sudden acceleration from low speed. When even shifting gears robs you of those precious moments. These are the situations when you have to exploit the rev. counters. Also those traffic signal starts or when you are in a boy racer mood!
I'm all for tacho, and I always like to have it. But, if someone ask me, will that affect my driving skills for overtaking with quick maneuverability ?

Yes, if it's a car which I have not driven before.
A big No, if If I've driven that car for atleast 100 kms on a car with tacho because by that time, I would have learnt the rpm to speed mapping on each gears.

I'm able to tell this with confidence, because I like to drive in a sporty manner and have driven both the Etios and Liva diesels extensively. I never felt short of something when making those quick moves on my mother's Liva. Infact, the fact that all variants of Liva and Etios Diesels are equipped with ABS gives it a better advantage on the curves at high speeds than not having/having a tacho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Competition these days is hot, all/most products are good, all boils down to ones likes & requirements. I prefer having a tacho over other gimmicky features, say...stereo, climate control, alloys, etc. What ABS, Airbags are to the passengers, tacho is to the engine! Now we can have an argument, that if you drive slow/carefully, you don't need ABS/Airbags...!
All variants of Liva and Etios are equipped with ABS unlike the competition. That single factor combined with the best brakes in the segment makes Liva more confident at higher speeds especially on the curves.
Tacho cannot be compared with ABS or airbags. Tacho is relevant more to people who are not used to the car before. Once, you get used to it, speedo is all that you need. You just need to take the effort to do the mapping. That's all. And enthusiastic drivers will do that, if each second matters to them.
And if someone is so particular about the tacho, he can go for an after market one, I guess.

To conclude, any day, I would like to have a tacho. But, at the same time, a tacho is never comparable to much more vital elements like ABS, airbags, space, ergonomics, engine performance, durability or braking efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Regarding Altis D, those are of-line stories. 3 people in my circle have experienced dipping oil levels & significantly.
That's interesting piece of info. I've many friends/relatives with D-4D and this is the first time, I have heard such a complaint for this ever-lasting engine ( Innova, Corolla, Fortuner, Qualis, Etios ). I'm interested in knowing more. Could you please PM me the contact details of these people who are having these issues?
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 11:54   #108
AWD
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Drivers seat
Posts: 804
Thanked: 217 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
A big No, if If I've driven that car for atleast 100 kms on a car with tacho because by that time, I would have learnt the rpm to speed mapping on each gears.
Its going to hit & miss everytime you need to extract max. juice in any given gear.

Quote:
I never felt short of something when making those quick moves on my mother's Liva.
You won't because you'd be firing in the dark, never know when you are in "red zone".

Quote:
Tacho cannot be compared with ABS or airbags. Tacho is relevant more to people who are not used to the car before. Once, you get used to it, speedo is all that you need. You just need to take the effort to do the mapping. That's all. if someone is so particular about the tacho, he can go for an after market one, I guess.
Guess you did not read/understand my statement properly, what I meant was like ABS/Airbags make a vehicle safe for the passengers, tacho ensures engine safety i.e. if followed. There are people who would say, we are enthusiasts, we get accustomed, do the mapping, hence don't even require the speedo. We always know what speed we are driving at! Like some don't wear watches & say we "don't need to because can tell the time by the movements of the sun"!

Some have even tried retro-fitment of ABS, Im not the ones who would opt for retro fitment of essential equipment when one can get it as O.E. fromt he competition.

Quote:
a tacho is never comparable to much more vital elements like ABS, airbags, space, ergonomics, engine performance, durability or braking efficiency.
In your book! Never undermined the use of ABS. Ergonomics, space, engine performance, durability, etc. are personal requirements, depends on each & every individuals needs.

I consider tacho to be an essential ingredient for a diesel car & should come as O.E. No compromises for me here.

Quote:
I have heard such a complaint for this ever-lasting engine ( Innova, Corolla, Fortuner, Qualis, Etios ).Could you please PM me the contact details of these people who are having these issues?
Qualis, Innova have set a benchmark, not the same with Altis. Sure will PM you the no. of my friend who's had bad experience with Altis.
AWD is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 12:27   #109
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Smile Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Its going to hit & miss everytime you need to extract max. juice in any given gear.
No it's not. Speedo to rpm mapping is all you need in your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
You won't because you'd be firing in the dark, never know when you are in "red zone".

Guess you did not read/understand my statement properly, what I meant was like ABS/Airbags make a vehicle safe for the passengers, tacho ensures engine safety i.e. if followed. There are people who would say, we are enthusiasts, we get accustomed, do the mapping, hence don't even require the speedo. We always know what speed we are driving at! Like some don't wear watches & say we "don't need to because can tell the time by the movements of the sun"!
Again, have to disagree here. Because redlining is not the way to drive a turbocharged Diesel with a spiky torque curve. You need to shift much before the red-line to keep the car in the power band. The fall of torque past 2400 is very steep and hence, you need to shift atleast at 3000 to 3200 rpms to extract the best out of the engine. This makes redlining the engine a rarity when compared to Petrol where you need to redline to keep the vehicle on it's peak performance.

Tacho cannot be compared to a speedo. If there was no speedo, I would have agreed what you told. What's so hard in remembering 5 numbers, one for each gear and stick to that limit ? I don't get it. Again, this is more irrelevant on turbo charged Diesels with FGT because redlining will not benefit you and you will automatically shift early unlike in Petrol where there is a higher chance of taking it to the red-lines because it does give you a benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Some have even tried retro-fitment of ABS, Im not the ones who would opt for retro fitment of essential equipment when one can get it as O.E. fromt he competition.
There are 2 aspects here. Retrofitting an ABS is not a simple thing to do and there is a lot of risk involved with regards to the safety of the person. Retro-fitting a tacho is child's play in comparison and can even be done by accessories shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
I consider tacho to be an essential ingredient for a diesel car & should come as O.E. No compromises for me here.
I consider tacho as a "useful addon". And I don't think not having a tacho will ever make a driver drive the Etios Diesel at 5000 rpms. Because that's not going to give him any kind of reward in terms of performance. The way to drive an FGT turbo-charged engine is to shift @ mid-rpms. Redlining is out of question here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Qualis, Innova have set a benchmark, not the same with Altis. Sure will PM you the no. of my friend who's had bad experience with Altis.
Waiting for the number.
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 13:12   #110
AWD
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Drivers seat
Posts: 804
Thanked: 217 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
Because redlining is not the way to drive a turbocharged Diesel with a spiky torque curve. The fall of torque past 2400 is very steep and hence, you need to shift atleast at 3000 to 3200 rpms to extract the best out of the engine. This makes redlining the engine a rarity when compared to Petrol where you need to redline to keep the vehicle on it's peak performance
Remember my statement "sudden overtaking manoeuvres", quick burst of acceleration, unless you know the revs, difficult to judge. Moreover Diesels like Liva are not ultra quiet, are noisy throughout. See you are talking in terms of rpms althrough, that's the importance. Moreover, if you talk of enthusiasts, nothing can beat having a nice mean looking tacho needle dancing in front of your eyes. Again when you talk of enthusiasts, make me thing are you really one because Liva & Etios are in no way enthusiastic cars!

I drive petrol cars day in & day out & let me tell you, its very rare that I have to red-line them. If you do, you are riding a bullet. Petrols are very rev-happy & not narrow banded. Here I don't mean that a tacho is not required.

Quote:
Tacho cannot be compared to a speedo.
Why not, if one can remember 5 nos. why not go the whole hog!
All diesels are not the same, some give power to the last rpms in the range.

Quote:
Retrofitting an ABS is not a simple thing to do and there is a lot of risk involved with regards to the safety of the person. Retro-fitting a tacho is child's play in comparison and can even be done by accessories shop
Correct but I won't even go in for a retro-fitted tacho. When competition is offering it, why not buy that car! Btw, a retro-fitted tacho can play spoil sport with your electricals, if its paced on the dash(which it will be) can act as a missile under worse circumstances.

Quote:
I consider tacho as a "useful addon". And I don't think not having a tacho will ever make a driver drive the Etios Diesel at 5000 rpms. Because that's not going to give him any kind of reward in terms of performance. The way to drive an FGT turbo-charged engine is to shift @ mid-rpms. Redlining is out of question here
That's where the difference lies, I don't consider it as an "add-on". Need it as standard. Again not a question of Etios, liva or any other car, need it like the speedo on all cars. Ofcourse Etios is not an enthusiasts car by a mile but that won't stop a sedate drive exploit the range during demanding situations. Now whether that "demand" came across you is not the question but all are not going to drive like you!

On "ways to drive", less said the better, everyone has different tastes & likes!

Also aren't there better things to memorize than counting revvs in the head all the time! Moreover when the services of a tacho can be emplied, why scratch your own head! Don't we buy cars for convenience? So think this as one more convenient feature to have, for me its stock.
AWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 13:48   #111
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Smile Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Remember my statement "sudden overtaking manoeuvres", quick burst of acceleration, unless you know the revs, difficult to judge. Moreover Diesels like Liva are not ultra quiet, are noisy throughout. See you are talking in terms of rpms althrough, that's the importance. Moreover, if you talk of enthusiasts, nothing can beat having a nice mean looking tacho needle dancing in front of your eyes. Again when you talk of enthusiasts, make me thing are you really one because Liva & Etios are in no way enthusiastic cars!
1) For quick burst of acceleration, you will automatically upshift on an engine with spiky torque curve on the mid.

2) It's not the noise helps the driver to downshift. But, the difference in tone of the engine sound which is very easily identified.

3) Regarding who is enthusiast and who is not, I don't want to comment, because I don't want to prove anything here. I've described the full details on why I went for the Etios Diesel on my ownership thread. Regardless, if you ask me, which are my favourite cars for driving, it's Etios Petrol, Maruti Baleno and Mitsubishi Lancer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
I drive petrol cars day in & day out & let me tell you, its very rare that I have to red-line them. If you do, you are riding a bullet. Petrols are very rev-happy & not narrow banded. Here I don't mean that a tacho is not required.
Petrol cars achieves more "resultant torque" or "torque on wheels" than a Diesel only when it's near the red line ( atleast 3000 rpms or more ), unless if it has a punchy mid like in the case of Baleno, Lancer or Etios Petrol. And hence driving a Petrol car near the red line makes sense. For turbo charged Diesels with spiky torque like Swift DDiS and Liva Diesel, there is no point revving the engine beyond 3,500 rpms because you get more power and torque on the wheels on a higher gear than further revving the engine. The shifting will be done automatically, at atleast 3500 rpms because loss of torque is so evident!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Why not, if one can remember 5 nos. why not go the whole hog!
All diesels are not the same, some give power to the last rpms in the range.
I'm talking about "DIesel cars with spiky torque curve" like the Swift Diesel, Liva DIesel, and Figo Diesel. Since, Liva Diesel falls in that category, the reasoning applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Correct but I won't even go in for a retro-fitted tacho. When competition is offering it, why not buy that car! Btw, a retro-fitted tacho can play spoil sport with your electricals, if its paced on the dash(which it will be) can act as a missile under worse circumstances.
I wouldn't either. Because I know that it's not going to offer me so much of advantage when on the roads. It offers convenience, but not at all a deal breaker, if it's not present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
That's where the difference lies, I don't consider it as an "add-on". Need it as standard. Again not a question of Etios, liva or any other car, need it like the speedo on all cars. Ofcourse Etios is not an enthusiasts car by a mile but that won't stop a sedate drive exploit the range during demanding situations. Now whether that "demand" came across you is not the question but all are not going to drive like you!

On "ways to drive", less said the better, everyone has different tastes & likes!
On ways to drive, people either try for sedate driving or for aggressive driving. In either case, I can assure you that there is no pointing working these engines beyond 3,500 rpms which is still a long way away from the red line. You can just hear the engine noise. That's the only advantage that you can get with such a driving style. With regards to power, you will get more power on the next shift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Also aren't there better things to memorize than counting revvs in the head all the time! Moreover when the services of a tacho can be emplied, why scratch your own head! Don't we buy cars for convenience? So think this as one more convenient feature to have, for me its stock.
As far as convenience is concerned, yes it adds to convenience. But, to consider a missing tacho as a deal breaker, I would never ever do that on such an engine. But, with Petrol, I would love to have a tacho, because there is more chances of a shift near to redline on Petrol

Last edited by noopster : 20th February 2012 at 12:17. Reason: Please avoid name-calling and maintain decorum while debating
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 14:41   #112
AWD
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Drivers seat
Posts: 804
Thanked: 217 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
It's not the noise helps the driver to downshift. But, the difference in tone of the engine sound which is very easily identified
Ones own choice, some live without PS, PW, CS, ABS, Airbags, etc. I prefer believing my eyes.
Difference in engine note towards the spike in an relatively un-refined car like Liva is minimal. Even you would not know for sure how many times have you driven in the red range.

Quote:
no point revving the engine beyond 3,500 rpms because you get more power and torque on the wheels on a higher gear than further revving the engine.
In 1st & 2nd gears, high revving is common because this car doesn't have great bottom end torque. Also some people don't like changing gears as much.

Quote:
It offers convenience, but not at all a deal breaker, if it's not present
As I already mentioned, different people have different tastes/choice, this is yours, that is mine. & yes Tacho is a make or break for me, especially in diesels.

Quote:
I would never ever do that on such an engine. But, with Petrol, I would love to have a tacho, because there is more chances of a shift near to redline on Petrol
For me its the other way around. Never had a chance to red-line my petrol cars on these roads. Also there's a significant dip in FE. With diesels you can have all the fun, economically viable too but only with a tacho. So, its a big yes as far as enthusiasts are concerned, not so for people looking for pt A to B commuter & Etios/Liva are aimed at those consumers, not at enthusiasts by a mile.

Last edited by noopster : 20th February 2012 at 12:18. Reason: Edited quoted post and your response to it Thanks!
AWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 15:10   #113
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD

Ones own choice, some live without PS, PW, CS, ABS, Airbags, etc. I prefer believing my eyes.
Difference in engine note towards the spike in an relatively un-refined car like Liva is minimal.
Having driven the etios twins in all sorts of conditions, I can say for sure that the engine tone change is significant. The power drop is significant too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD
In 1st & 2nd gears, high revving is common because this car doesn't have great bottom end torque. Also some people don't like changing gears as much.
Liva and etios have negligible turbo lag, and has good torque from 1500 rpms. 1800 to 2400 is the range where it delivers peak torque. Beyond 3000, the torque dies off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD
For me its the other way around. Never had a chance to red-line my petrol cars on these roads. Also there's a significant dip in FE. With diesels you can have all the fun, economically viable too but only with a tacho. So, its a big yes as far as enthusiasts are concerned, not so for people looking for pt A to B commuter & Etios/Liva are aimed at those consumers, not at enthusiasts by a mile.
enthusiasts are not people who blindly pushes the accelerator, irrespective of the shape of the torque curve. They drive a vehicle according to its strength and weakness. Liva's strength is its mid range and an enthusiast will try to keep it there all through.

Last edited by noopster : 20th February 2012 at 12:23. Reason: Please avoid name-calling and maintain decorum while replying
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 16:33   #114
BHPian
 
fuel_addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 691
Thanked: 111 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji

I know many Altis Diesel owners, who have clocked 1.5 lakhs plus on their odo and none of them have such an issue. Do you have any reference thread for this ?

Are you sure? The Altis D was launched recently (Aug 2010). It is very unlikely that there would be any users who have clocked in excess of 1.5L km on the odo this fast. Even taxi operators may not have achieved this feat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji
I do not like the odd location of the tacho because of the looks. But, does it make it difficult to read the numbers? not at all. It's just a matter of getting used to and you'll always get the numbers on the back of your eye even when looking at the roads.
It's a matter of personal taste. For many, the odd position of the tacho is a deal breaker which drives them away from the Etios/Liva twins.
fuel_addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 18:17   #115
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuel_addict

Are you sure? The Altis D was launched recently (Aug 2010). It is very unlikely that there would be any users who have clocked in excess of 1.5L km on the odo this fast. Even taxi operators may not have achieved this feat.
.
I just called my friend again. He runs a travel agency and owns many corollas and innovas.
My bad, it was the petrol variants that clocked upwards of 1.5 l
Diesel has clocked a maximum of 65,000 kms. Oil dip is an unheard story on any of his vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuel_addict
It's a matter of personal taste. For many, the odd position of the tacho is a deal breaker which drives them away from the Etios/Liva twins.
I agree.
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 21:47   #116
Distinguished - BHPian
 
swiftnfurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 6,389
Thanked: 6,120 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
You won't because you'd be firing in the dark, never know when you are in "red zone".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Remember my statement "sudden overtaking manoeuvres", quick burst of acceleration, unless you know the revs, difficult to judge.
From what I read in your posts, your driving skills are pretty much mated to the petrol engines. Driving a diesel with the same style is NOT going to earn you any benefits! In the current gen diesel engines you are looking at, NO point in red-lining your engine - you don't have that much "extra" power at disposal at those rpms, the engine is NOT going to be silent as well! So it's better that you shift early [in the power band than red-line rpms] and make progress!

I am sedate driver and try and shift early as possible. Because of this, I find tacho quite beneficial. When I want to overtake, I just check the tacho & try to build the rpms without changing gears, to ensure I have a smooth overtaking. For a person who drives harder, tacho may not be required since they are bound to be in the turbo range!

As mentioned, what a person needs in the car is his/her preference. Buy one which suits you or excites you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
All diesels are not the same, some give power to the last rpms in the range.
Well, I believe they all are quite "similar" in the segments we are discussing! Any pointers to the diesel engines which give power in the last rpms ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
In 1st & 2nd gears, high revving is common because this car doesn't have great bottom end torque.
Toyota Liva & Etios diesel have "good" low end torque compared to the majority of the competition [zero-turbo lag]. To get moving, you don't have to high revv the engine & 1800 rpm is all what you need to get all the torque at your disposal. In city conditions, these cars will have ample torque to meet your needs below 1800 rpm as well!

Quoting a part of Mod's review of Liva & Etios D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
What you'll like:

• Modern diesel engine with minimal turbo lag and excellent driveability

Where the Liva scores is in driveability. The clutch is extremely light, and just a gentle release with no accelerator input gets the Liva off from a standstill. There is hardly any turbo lag, and you can upshift early without getting bogged down. Power delivery is extremely linear. You do feel a small push at 1,800 rpm when the turbo kicks in. No need to downshift to 1st for Bangalore’s infamous speed breakers either; you can comfortably accelerate out in 2nd itself, unlike the Swift / Ritz (that require a downshift). The car pulls comfortably and you can potter around the city in 2nd or 3rd gears comfortably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
For me its the other way around. Never had a chance to red-line my petrol cars on these roads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
I drive petrol cars day in & day out & let me tell you, its very rare that I have to red-line them.
Is there any particular reason you expect your diesel car to be red-lined when you never had to red-line your petrol car?

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 19th February 2012 at 21:54. Reason: Adding Mod's quote
swiftnfurious is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2012, 22:59   #117
AWD
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Drivers seat
Posts: 804
Thanked: 217 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
engine tone change is significant. The power drop is significant too
I need a tacho like you need a speedo...!

Quote:
Beyond 3000, the torque dies off.
2nd, 3rd gears or all?

Quote:
enthusiasts are not people who blindly pushes the accelerator Liva's strength is its mid range and an enthusiast will try to keep it there all through.
Taken out of context, what I said was that Liva is not an enthusiasts car.
Yes that's precisely what Im saying, need a tacho to avoid driving in the red lane! As simple as that & you can't get it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Driving a diesel with the same style is NOT going to earn you any benefits! In the current gen diesel engines you are looking at, NO point in red-lining your engine
Yes it would a transition for me from Petrols to diesel but just that I don't own one, have driven extensively.

Precisely, I want to avoid driving in the red lane & so the tacho. The whole point is that I need to have a tacho in my diesel car, more so than I need in petrols. Now whether power tapers off towards the end or not, is another story. If it does, still good to have a tacho around to see those revvs.

Quote:
When I want to overtake, I just check the tacho & try to build the rpms without changing gears, to ensure I have a smooth overtaking. For a person who drives harder, tacho may not be required since they are bound to be in the turbo range!
Yes that's what Im saying, you can only check a tacho when its there! Whatever your driving style/skills, a tacho is a handy tool. While on highways, when you suddenly change to 1st & accelerate fast/hard, you need to keep an eye on the tacho.

Quote:
As mentioned, what a person needs in the car is his/her preference. Buy one which suits you or excites you!
Yes, Liva without a tacho doesn't suit me or my needs, so Im not buying it.

Quote:
Any pointers to the diesel engines which give power in the last rpms
Swift is pretty rev happy, Vista too, Micra not far behind.

Quote:
[zero-turbo lag] In city conditions, these cars will have ample torque to meet your needs below 1800 rpm as well!
Is there any particular reason you expect your diesel car to be red-lined when you never had to red-line your petrol car?
For City run, any car will do the job, its only when you need power at tap that you realize the need for a tacho.

Because in petrols its practically not possible to reach the red range, you have to brake in-between or slow down. On highways its a different story & when you need sudden bursts of power/acceleration, you can push the acc. & rev counters won't disappoint. While in diesels the rpm meter reaches it max. quite fast, so you moreso need to keep a watch there. Therefore a tacho is a must. Rest its anybodies choice, I can't live without a tacho in a diesel car. For others it might not be a factor at all. & yes haven't come across a true auto enthusiast not wanting a tacho.

Last edited by noopster : 20th February 2012 at 12:23. Reason: Edited quoted post
AWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2012, 08:54   #118
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Smile Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
I need a tacho like you need a speedo...!
Speedo can give the same meaning of the tacho. And people will get adjusted, if tacho is absent. I'm saying this because I was very particular about the tacho as well. If you check my earlier posts on the same thread, you can see that I was disappointed with the fact that Liva lacks the tacho. Then I drove it for around 75 kms, and I got used to the speedo ( the mapping of speed and powerband gets into the mind ). So, while tacho is indeed a convenient meter, the utility of it can be easily replaced with the speedo once you get used to the vehicle.

Regardless, if I were Toyota, I would have provided Tacho as a standard option on all variants, because it wouldn't have costed a lot to read the values from the ECU and display it on dash!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
2nd, 3rd gears or all?
Torque curve of the engine is independent of the gear. So, it applies for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Taken out of context, what I said was that Liva is not an enthusiasts car.
Yes that's precisely what Im saying, need a tacho to avoid driving in the red lane! As simple as that & you can't get it!
Precisely, I want to avoid driving in the red lane & so the tacho.
The whole point is that I need to have a tacho in my diesel car, more so than I need in petrols. Now whether power tapers off towards the end or not, is another story. If it does, still good to have a tacho around to see those revvs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Yes it would a transition for me from Petrols to diesel but just that I don't own one, have driven extensively.
While I completely understand the relevance of tacho for convenience sake and making it easy for the brain to interpret, I still cannot understand the significance of it to prevent redlining on a car ( any car equipped with FGT turbo charged diesel engine in that segment - Liva, Swift, Figo, Micra ) that is the most boring when it is red-lined.

If you are trying to red-line the Diesels, you are driving it in a completely wrong way. Myself, being used to Petrol cars for 10 years can say that driving Diesels and Petrols are 2 different art.

Red-lining is more relevant to Petrol than in Diesels. In short, enthusiasts drive Petrol in the red-line while they drive the Diesels in its peak torque range and a little beyond

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Yes that's what Im saying, you can only check a tacho when its there! Whatever your driving style/skills, a tacho is a handy tool. While on highways, when you suddenly change to 1st & accelerate fast/hard, you need to keep an eye on the tacho.
Yes, with Petrol driving style. No, with Diesel ( if the need is to accelerate fast/hard and not to accelerate slow ) because you are going to make the car accelerate slower if you do that and hence the shift to 2nd will automatically happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Swift is pretty rev happy, Vista too, Micra not far behind.
For all diesel turbo charged engines with FGT in India which includes Swift, Micra, Liva, Figo, there is no point in red-lining. Will show you an excel calculation which proves that 2nd gear at 2400 rpms on the same speed is better than 1st gear at 4250 rpms inspite of more noise and more rpms for the 1st gear unlike in the case of a Petrol where there is a definite advantage. 5000 rpms is simply out of question for these vehicles.

Name:  torque_turbodiesel.jpg
Views: 1863
Size:  43.0 KB


Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Guess your writing skills match your driving ones....best of luck!
Again, don't want to prove any point to anyone with regards to my skills. Just wanted to comment when I saw a reasoning which I perceive as incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Bottom line: I would again say, having a tacho is a boon & consumers should urge companies to offer this part of equipment as standard.

Diesel cars need it moreso because the rpm needle maxes out quickly.
Agree with 1st statement
Disagree with 2nd because on Diesel FGT, red-lining is out of question. The car will bore you to death and force you to shift before reaching red-line.
amalji is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2012, 10:35   #119
Senior - BHPian
 
amalji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kochi
Posts: 1,149
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Post Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

PS:
1) Gear Ratios calculated based on this external link for gear ratio to speed mapping based on tyre size.
2) rpm to speed mapping taken from my ownership thread of Etios Diesel
3) Transmission loss of 15% is assumed. Regardless of the change in transmission loss, the proven statement is unchanged.

Last edited by amalji : 20th February 2012 at 10:39.
amalji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2012, 12:30   #120
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,505
Thanked: 8,881 Times
Default Re: Toyota Liva Diesel : Test Drive & Review

Note from Team BHP Support Staff: Folks, please avoid name-calling and negative characterizations of other posters in your posts. It is important to maintain decorum on the forums.
Also avoid responding to such posts directly and use "report post" function to call the attention of moderators.
noopster is offline   (5) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Toyota Corolla Altis (1.4 D-4D) Diesel : Test Drive & Review GTO Official New Car Reviews 209 31st March 2017 09:57
Toyota Liva : Test Drive & Review GTO Official New Car Reviews 527 8th February 2017 21:38
Toyota Etios Diesel : Test Drive & Review Vid6639 Official New Car Reviews 258 21st February 2016 11:25


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:22.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks