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Old 3rd April 2013, 20:52   #166
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Great review GTO, echoing the others! As pointed out, it is built to cost and sadly won't be taking much of a fight to the C2 segment at all. In the C1 segment, I think it wont be a cakewalk for the Amaze as well, unless it undercuts the Dzire on pricing because a lot of the status-conscious features like ACC, interior quality are missing. Most C1 customers who are 1-car families are already trading up from hatches/beginner cars and want a bigger car feel, so I don't think they'd sacrifice quality of look and feel too much for a marginal1-2l more milage or slightly better in-city drivability
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Old 3rd April 2013, 21:19   #167
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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
I'll buy an Amaze after people do 2 lakh kilometers on it. Not before that. I am sorry, but I am being pragmatic, I have nothing against Honda per se. I know they make beautiful cars, as long they are doing petrol cars. Till that time, I'll stick to Toyota or Suzuki or VW with tested engines.

I appreciate Honda for making a brand new engine for "emerging markets". But as an individual I have "emerged" to take a decision not only by brand name!
Finally - the voice of sanity!
While I certainly am sold on the package that Honda offers, I am really skeptical about how it would hold up in "Indian Conditions". I know Honda has been responsive and has a brilliant A$$, I still would like to give it some time for initial niggles to settle down. Remember Etios / Liva horror stories after the Q Sale?

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team: Please avoid quoting an entire large post. It inconveniences our small screen & mobile readers.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 4th April 2013 at 07:55.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 23:08   #168
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Originally Posted by crazydave View Post
Great review GTO, echoing the others! As pointed out, it is built to cost and sadly won't be taking much of a fight to the C2 segment at all. In the C1 segment, I think it wont be a cakewalk for the Amaze as well, unless it undercuts the Dzire on pricing because a lot of the status-conscious features like ACC, interior quality are missing. Most C1 customers who are 1-car families are already trading up from hatches/beginner cars and want a bigger car feel, so I don't think they'd sacrifice quality of look and feel too much for a marginal1-2l more milage or slightly better in-city drivability
IMHO, the human mind behaves funny. Once Amaze manages to get the "best FE", "best driveability" tag in the minds of consumers, most people will go by it, doesn't matter if the mileage is more by 1kmpl or 0.5 kmpl. See Maruti, the "tag" of "good service" has stuck in the minds of people. Fact is, service costs of Maruti is quite high, and service is not that great either (speaking from personal experience), neither is the vehicle built great, and these days Maruti is no-way the king of mileage. But most people still associate Maruti with all these qulities. Pick 100 middle class people blindly, and 60% of these will say Maruti is the best. It will take some time and a lot of good work from other brands to shake this image.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 23:36   #169
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Great review GTO. Some initial comments which I would like to share about Amaze...

- Dash is not up to the mark, the one expected from Honda.
- Rear legroom is quite decent
- Being a sub 4-meter sedan, the boot space is plenty
- Powerful yet efficient heart
- Honda brand image


Well to be very frank, Dzire did not have a true competition till so far. If Honda prices the Amaze rightly, I can see Dzire starting to offer discounts or start giving free buys. The i-dtec looks quite good on papers with the torque and power figures and of course the economy figures but we need to wait and see how it adapts to the Indian road/environment. By now Dzire is a house hold name and does not need to prove anything, but Honda has to as the name is quite synonymous to petrol heads..

I am myself a proud owner of Dzire, but the Honda Amaze looks pretty luring. Would love to try my hands on one.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 23:41   #170
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Originally Posted by vasanthn21 View Post
IMHO, the human mind behaves funny. Once Amaze manages to get the "best FE", "best driveability" tag in the minds of consumers, most people will go by it, doesn't matter if the mileage is more by 1kmpl or 0.5 kmpl. See Maruti, the "tag" of "good service" has stuck in the minds of people. Fact is, service costs of Maruti is quite high, and service is not that great either (speaking from personal experience), neither is the vehicle built great, and these days Maruti is no-way the king of mileage. But most people still associate Maruti with all these qulities. Pick 100 middle class people blindly, and 60% of these will say Maruti is the best. It will take some time and a lot of good work from other brands to shake this image.

You just picked it right. Maruti is struggling to get them up. Ford, Toyota, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Nissan are all in the business and closing the gap with Maruti. The image has began to loose its ground and a fall is certain. I own a maruti Ritz and I never found anything great with the car or the company. From my personal experience Maruti has the worst technicians who don't even know how to fit a tyre properly. Now Maruti is behind every other manufacturer in any aspects be it fuel economy, built quality, service, brand image, features etc. They are just taking advantage of what the M800 did to the Indians. They are selling the swift hiding itself behind the nameplate of the reliable M800. And thanks to the developers of the Multijet that's helping the swift survive otherwise MSIL's reign should have ended by now. The moment Fiat refuses to renew the contract ends everything. Now, Honda have got a nice platform to step in to. The only thing that used to stop people from going for Honda was fuel economy and price. Both have been resolved and in addition to that they have got the Earth dreams!!. I am sure that the Honda's new breed is going to get fantastic numbers and would break the Dzire sales. And after all being a Honda, the name is enough.

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Old 4th April 2013, 00:19   #171
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Originally Posted by vasanthn21 View Post
See Maruti, the "tag" of "good service" has stuck in the minds of people. Fact is, service costs of Maruti is quite high, and service is not that great either (speaking from personal experience), neither is the vehicle built great, and these days Maruti is no-way the king of mileage. But most people still associate Maruti with all these qulities. Pick 100 middle class people blindly, and 60% of these will say Maruti is the best. It will take some time and a lot of good work from other brands to shake this image.
Don't think service cost in Maruti is very high. The service is quite good, if you stick to reputed MASS. But yes, a few MASS are bad, that's from my personal experience. But Maruti does some gradation and star ratings for their service centers.

All said and done, Maruti cars can be serviced by roadside mechanics. That's where Maruti scores. And certain non-critical parts (e.g. a tail lamp assembly) can be procured at half the cost from local market. That's not possible with most other cars. That's where Maruti scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delix View Post

Well to be very frank, Dzire did not have a true competition till so far. If Honda prices the Amaze rightly, I can see Dzire starting to offer discounts or start giving free buys. The i-dtec looks quite good on papers with the torque and power figures and of course the economy figures but we need to wait and see how it adapts to the Indian road/environment. By now Dzire is a house hold name and does not need to prove anything, but Honda has to as the name is quite synonymous to petrol heads..

I am myself a proud owner of Dzire, but the Honda Amaze looks pretty luring. Would love to try my hands on one.
Yes, Amaze "looks" pretty luring. Still, I would play the Devil's Advocate for quite some time. At least for two more years. I know Honda has made diesel engines before, but frankly, their diesel engines are not quite well known. Like Toyota's, or Fiat's, VW's and Renault's.

Your Dzire has the time-tested Fiat 1.3 multijet engine which is known to last for years without any trouble. Till the time Amaze proves its longevity, I would stick to Dzire. Just being pragmatic.

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The only thing that used to stop people from going for Honda was fuel economy and price. Both have been resolved and in addition to that they have got the Earth dreams!!. I am sure that the Honda's new breed is going to get fantastic numbers and would break the Dzire sales. And after all being a Honda, the name is enough.
Well, no name is good enough, unless it's proved. Remember the craze when Indica was launched? Tata was (and still is) a great brand. And they make good trucks, watches, cement and so many other things. Still they can't make good cars. (My opinion, I know some people love their Tata cars and I don't want to offend them)

Honda makes good petrol cars, bikes, even generators but they never concentrated on making diesel engines. Of course they had some sporadic efforts with diesel engines, but that was never their strength. Now that they are doing it, fine -- I just hope they don't go the way Tata did with Indica.

Suzuki was pragmatic when they decided to go with people who know diesel -- first Renault, now Fiat. And it's too early to rubbish them.

As for "Earth dreams" -- all these are marketing gimmicks and aren't we mature enough to understand that?

Last edited by subratasenn : 4th April 2013 at 00:23.
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Old 4th April 2013, 01:41   #172
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Is manufacturing a diesel engine like rocket science? Honda did not make diesel engines early not because they did not how to or lacked the expertise. They did not go the diesel engine route because they did not think it worthwhile and were not keen on diesel technology. The demanding european market and now Indian market have forced them to relook this strategy.

A company like Honda that also makes speed boats, cars, bikes, robots and even airplanes not being able to make reliable diesel engines is being extremely pessimistic.

After a long chat with the technical head of this engine, the amount of testing and engineering gone into this engine is probably what other manufacturers can only dream of. The new oil, lightweight components, low friction are testimony of this.
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Old 4th April 2013, 05:23   #173
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1) Excellent review from GTO as always.
2) This car is superior to the Dzire in terms of
  • design ( this was easy because Dzire was poorly designed in the first place )
  • Power ( 1.5L, 100 PS and 200 Nm is from one class above ! )
  • Mileage - Bigger engine and higher power without compromising on mileage
With the release of Honda Amaze, Honda has just removed every single reason to go for a Dzire. The only possible negative is the fact that this is an untested engine. But coming from Honda, you can trust that Honda will take ownership of any flaws even in the rare scenario where it happens.

And I hope, they give the 1,00,000 / 3 year warranty for the Amaze. This should be more than enough to ensure peace of mind with the Amazing Amaze.

There are 3 cars that attract me in this price range.

1) Amaze
2) Ertiga
3) Etios ( I own one )
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Old 4th April 2013, 05:58   #174
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The amount of testing and engineering gone into this engine is probably what other manufacturers can only dream of. The new oil, lightweight components, low friction are testimony of this.
That's the advantage of developing an engine in-house as opposed to sourcing one from another manufacturer/ engine supplier under license. Much that defines a brand is howmuch of their core brand philosophy they imbibe into their products. This allowed Honda to make an engine with class-leading power and the entire development process allowed them to revolutionize the way a small capacity diesel engine is built - introducing lightweight materials wherever possible, compliance with an in-house engine oil and calibration to India's high sulphur content fuel. Maruti can only tweak the Fiat-sourced Multijet or ECU somuch to satisfy their requirments and brand values.

That's not to say that the Fiat sourced engine was not revolutionary for Maruti, only that if Maruti had to go about developing an engine, you could be assured that their focus would have been more on mileage, possibly less horsepower (they have the petrol varaints of the Swift/Ritz/Ertiga for that), better 1st and 2nd gear pick up at low revs and far more cost-effective materials.

Last edited by Motored Mindset : 4th April 2013 at 06:03.
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Old 4th April 2013, 10:00   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Other Points:

• One major player missing in action from the compact sedan space is Hyundai (no, the vintage Accent doesn’t count).
Looks like Hyundai watches this forum pretty closely and are planning to make amends.

Hyundai i20 sedan unveiled.
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Old 4th April 2013, 10:12   #176
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Originally Posted by Motored Mindset View Post
That's the advantage of developing an engine in-house as opposed to sourcing one from another manufacturer/ engine supplier under license. Much that defines a brand is howmuch of their core brand philosophy they imbibe into their products. This allowed Honda to make an engine with class-leading power and the entire development process allowed them to revolutionize the way a small capacity diesel engine is built - introducing lightweight materials wherever possible, compliance with an in-house engine oil and calibration to India's high sulphur content fuel. Maruti can only tweak the Fiat-sourced Multijet or ECU somuch to satisfy their requirments and brand values.

That's not to say that the Fiat sourced engine was not revolutionary for Maruti, only that if Maruti had to go about developing an engine, you could be assured that their focus would have been more on mileage, possibly less horsepower (they have the petrol varaints of the Swift/Ritz/Ertiga for that), better 1st and 2nd gear pick up at low revs and far more cost-effective materials.
Fiat's 1.2 multijet is now 10 years old! If fiat were to build a new engine from the scratch today using new oils and light weight almunium design, with all their diesel experience, they can trump honda surely. Even the 1.6 multijet produces 105 bhp and 290 nm torque @ 1500 rpm, IIRC.

It's just that Maruti and tata found it readily available and so didn't invest in developing new technology which may or may not have succeeded.
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Old 4th April 2013, 10:34   #177
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Well the discussion on Amaze and Honda's experience with diesel engine is surely heating up. Now that I have booked one, I will be following this thread closely.

On another note, my i10 started leaking fuel last week when filled with >60% of the tank. Took it to ASS. They said that a fuel nose assembly should be changed as one of the pipes was broken, probably due to a rat chewing They replaced the related parts and gave the car back. I filled the fuel up today morning and guess what the leak was still there. I was really upset . Just imagine if somebody threw a cigarette bud while I was driving the vehicle through the road.

Now back to the matter. So for me it does not matter whether the car (together with the engine, gearbox and other parts) is new or established (i10 is a fairly established car as most of you would agree). With Amaze I am ready to take the plunge. Keep watching this space for more.
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Old 4th April 2013, 10:49   #178
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+1 to that.

Honda guys have something up the sleeve always but are they playing the cards very well here, I am caught in two minds.

As someone told here, 9.3L OTR is what the top end DZire diesel costs in Bangalore (ZDI variant). So on par with that if they keep the pricing I think it's fine. Someone asking you to choose between AC First class in train and Business Class in flight at same fare, obviously you all know what to pick right. I have driven my cousin's Dzire which has run close to 70k km, I think it's life is over though for Honda that is the time the engine matures and shows its stability.

And being Honda, I am sure there will be an updated version within say 6 months or 1 year max with all customer feedbacks taken into consideration and niggling issues if any too. So price would rather go up only for the newer version. Then that will pitch into top end version of Etios closely. Last week had a chance to drive Etios, not a bad car at all except the outdated design, odd located speedo console and thin sheet metal body. It was very spacious.

Also there is this matter of cab coming into picture with the 25.8 kmpl tag. So Honda wants atleast to keep them if possible at a distance. At the end of the day I too feel the price is an overkill. Will go for a proper petrol sedan (again Honda only) rather entry level sedan at this point of time. Let's wait and see, only time will tell. I mean the tbhp review's !!

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Old 4th April 2013, 11:05   #179
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Looks like Hyundai watches this forum pretty closely and are planning to make amends.

Hyundai i20 sedan unveiled.
The i20 Sedan definitely looks better than Amaze, Dzire, Etios or Sail. Pricing will be the key as always. If they get it right, could be another run similar to i10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Don't think service cost in Maruti is very high. The service is quite good, if you stick to reputed MASS. But yes, a few MASS are bad, that's from my personal experience. But Maruti does some gradation and star ratings for their service centers.

All said and done, Maruti cars can be serviced by roadside mechanics. That's where Maruti scores. And certain non-critical parts (e.g. a tail lamp assembly) can be procured at half the cost from local market. That's not possible with most other cars. That's where Maruti scores.
Yes, I agree Maruti cars can be serviced by roadside mechanics. But I think it is the same with Hyundai or Toyota or Tata as long as you go to a good mechanic. Spares for most of these brands these days is also easily available.
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Old 4th April 2013, 11:25   #180
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A company like Honda that also makes speed boats, cars, bikes, robots and even airplanes not being able to make reliable diesel engines is being extremely pessimistic.
I am not being pessimistic. I am just putting in the Devil's Advocate's point of view. And I am not ready to go ga ga about Amaze this early.

Airbus and Boeing too make speedboats and small passenger ship. Would I buy a car from them if they bring out one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
The only possible negative is the fact that this is an untested engine. But coming from Honda, you can trust that Honda will take ownership of any flaws even in the rare scenario where it happens.

And I hope, they give the 1,00,000 / 3 year warranty for the Amaze. This should be more than enough to ensure peace of mind with the Amazing Amaze.
+1 to that. The way Honda has started marketing Amaze (here in Kolkata, hoardings are all over the city and every other day we see a jacket cover in mainline newspapers) I have a feeling that they would be giving the 1 lakh/ 3 year warranty to remove any doubts.

Quote:
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With Amaze I am ready to take the plunge. Keep watching this space for more.
I am waiting for that. I'll keep a watch on your posts after you take the plunge. Three years later, I'll take a decision after reading your posts.

Last edited by subratasenn : 4th April 2013 at 11:27.
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