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Old 4th April 2013, 11:28   #181
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Originally Posted by junaid12345678 View Post
And thanks to the developers of the Multijet that's helping the swift survive otherwise MSIL's reign should have ended by now. The moment Fiat refuses to renew the contract ends everything.
True, but why would Fiat stop supplying the engine? It's been such a success for them and keeps their India plant running. They hardly sell any cars. In Jan Maruti and Fiat entered into an agreement to supply 100,000 diesel engines annually for three years. Maruti is safe till Jan 2016.

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Don't think service cost in Maruti is very high. The service is quite good, if you stick to reputed MASS. But yes, a few MASS are bad, that's from my personal experience. But Maruti does some gradation and star ratings for their service centers.

All said and done, Maruti cars can be serviced by roadside mechanics. That's where Maruti scores. And certain non-critical parts (e.g. a tail lamp assembly) can be procured at half the cost from local market. That's not possible with most other cars. That's where Maruti scores.
I have a slightly different perspective, having owned three Maruti cars and a Honda. Maruti service especially from the Service Masters outlets is quite good. And of course their network is the widest of them all. But the cars are flimsy and frankly they need that good and wide service network to keep them going.
Honda on the other hand is mediocre in service but the product is so well put together that it rarely needs serious attention.

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Is manufacturing a diesel engine like rocket science? Honda did not make diesel engines early not because they did not how to or lacked the expertise. They did not go the diesel engine route because they did not think it worthwhile and were not keen on diesel technology. The demanding european market and now Indian market have forced them to relook this strategy.

A company like Honda that also makes speed boats, cars, bikes, robots and even airplanes not being able to make reliable diesel engines is being extremely pessimistic.

After a long chat with the technical head of this engine, the amount of testing and engineering gone into this engine is probably what other manufacturers can only dream of. The new oil, lightweight components, low friction are testimony of this.
I have said this before and posted this link before:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aGUDxfTgbHY4

Honda is an engine company. It makes products around its engines. If you can't trust Honda with engine tech, you can't trust anyone. I would buy a Honda i-DTEC powered car, eyes closed.

Just to elaborate on something that Vid6639 said that helps to explain why Honda is late to the small-diesel bandwagon. During the last decade, Honda bet that before hydrogen fuel cell becomes mainstream, hybrid cars would be the interim future. And if you look, they developed the CR-Z, hybrid Jazz, Accord and new Insight in line with this vision. The Europeans went in the direction of efficient diesels and turbocharged, direct injection petrols.
The latter won out. Even consumers in the U.S. preferred buying cars with more efficient, conventional engines. And that realization pushed Honda to develop the Earth Dreams line, which includes the 1.6 i-DTEC and on which the India 1.5 diesel is based.

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Old 4th April 2013, 11:44   #182
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

U.S still prefers hybrids over diesels. Reason why even the Europeans have introduced hybrids in U.S. And its the no.1 market for Honda (and for most companies).

Fiat discontinuing engine supply to Maruti would be a joke on Fiat. They are not competitors (sorry, Fiat is no competition to anyone )
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Old 4th April 2013, 11:54   #183
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Slightly off topic

I wanted to know that if manufacturing costs depends upon the size/output torque& power of the engine provided technology remaining constant ?

We have different engines available in same price range offering similar technology but different size/output namely 1.5 dtec,1.3mjd,1.5dci,1.4 tdci,1.4 crdi etc.

Will the amaze's 1.5 engine will take same cost for manufacturing as compared to dzire's 1.3 ?
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Old 4th April 2013, 11:55   #184
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Brilliant Review Sirs ! I'm very eager to know how well the Amaze does in Indian conditions. So this forum is the place to watch how it goes. Having driven a Maruti Ritz vdi for three years now, I'm excited by the review posted here. It does seem to be a good entry level option in the sedan class. My eyes will be glued to this forum to know its future reports cards. Great effort, Guys !
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:03   #185
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With the release of Honda Amaze, Honda has just removed every single reason to go for a Dzire.
I have a different point of view. DZire still has something going for it - more upmarket feel with superior interiors and refinement, features, better GC, possibly offers superior combo of ride and handling and is backed by the formidable Maruti service network with lower service costs (compared to Amaze - as per my knoledge of Honda service costs). IMHO, space management is a lowdown priority for most of us, it's more about buying a good "Sedan" in a particular price-range. (How else could someone compare DZire and Etios?!)

Though a darn good car, Amaze will not upstage the mighty DZire, not just yet.
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:09   #186
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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
...
I have a slightly different perspective, having owned three Maruti cars and a Honda.
...serious attention.
Honda is an engine company.
... the Earth Dreams line, which includes the 1.6 i-DTEC and on which the India 1.5 diesel is based.
I have a different take on Honda reliability, honestly haven't seen a single Honda that has been roughed up by taking it to bad roads, Fords and Maruti on the other hand seem to hold up under this abuse much better. Honda is primarily for urban folks, in rural areas damage to the undercarriage can burn a really large whole in your wallet.

Marketing mythology aside, Honda's make pretty realiable mainstream cars, to claim their engines are the cream of the crop is hyperbole. Fiat powertrain are pioneers in diesel, BMW has their legendary I6 petrols. Honda bet on the wrong horse and finally decided to get their act together with a smaller diesel engine. Earth Dreams is just a marketing term and a terrible one at that, this engine's specs are great because its brand new, a year or two max and most others will have matching or better products.
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:35   #187
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As always an awesome review GTO!

One of the most awaited vehicles this year and I must commend you on a no stone unturned review! I seriously doubt there will be a better coverage elsewhere!

One point which Honda has been brilliant at is Cost cutting! They have always made areas which the customer sees/ feels plush. This picture below says a thousand words!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Wheel well has adequate width. No dead pedal, though there is space for your left foot to rest:
The exposed dampening/ insulation just above the beige carpet.....

My boss in the UK used to say the following quote whenever we architects used cut corners

“dont spoil the ship for an hapeth of tar”
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:36   #188
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post

Marketing mythology aside, Honda's make pretty realiable mainstream cars, to claim their engines are the cream of the crop is hyperbole. Fiat powertrain are pioneers in diesel, BMW has their legendary I6 petrols. Honda bet on the wrong horse and finally decided to get their act together with a smaller diesel engine. Earth Dreams is just a marketing term and a terrible one at that, this engine's specs are great because its brand new, a year or two max and most others will have matching or better products.
They did not make diesel engines for a long time. They do make cream of the crop 4 cylinders (ones you get in India are not the prime examples for that)
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:38   #189
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Hi folks,

Just booked an Amaze at Capital Honda, OMR, Chennai, by paying a token advance of 5K. It is refundable till 11th.
They don't have a car to look at, let alone test drive.
And indicative prices, for diesel top variant, are around 8.5L - 9L.

This is my first post on team-bhp, though I have been around since 2010. And it has turned out to be an auspicious one!

best regards,
Ananth
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:49   #190
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They did not make diesel engines for a long time. They do make cream of the crop 4 cylinders (ones you get in India are not the prime examples for that)
According to someone earlier in the thread it's been 10 years of diesel engines in the European Accord, that's long enough to be in the latest version of the technology, commonrail and turbo combined. The 4 cylinders are refined, I haven't seen any numbers suggesting they are better, compare the 1.8 TSI with the 1.8 or 2.4 that Honda has done to death here. Honda hasn't bothered beyond VTEC because the marketing ensured recall for ages and it's wearing out now.

The Amaze is up against well established players in slowing market, let's see how it does, Earth Dreaming aside.
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:50   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnAnd View Post
Hi folks,

Just booked an Amaze at Capital Honda, OMR, Chennai, by paying a token advance of 5K. It is refundable till 11th.
They don't have a car to look at, let alone test drive.
And indicative prices, for diesel top variant, are around 8.5L - 9L.

This is my first post on team-bhp, though I have been around since 2010. And it has turned out to be an auspicious one!

best regards,
Ananth
Congratulations on your booking! And welcome to team-bhp. You'll find this thread very useful in future.
Could you tell me what are the variants available and what are the differences amongst each?
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:54   #192
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

Rushlane says 2552 Amaze sedans sold (or probably shipped to dealers) in Mar-13 . This has helped Honda to avoid bigger slide, to a smaller ~9% downfall in numbers in the month.

Their report:

http://www.rushlane.com/2552-honda-a...3-1272969.html
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Old 4th April 2013, 13:07   #193
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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
I have a different point of view. DZire still has something going for it - more upmarket feel with superior interiors and refinement, features, better GC, possibly offers superior combo of ride and handling and is backed by the formidable Maruti service network with lower service costs (compared to Amaze - as per my knoledge of Honda service costs).
+1 & IMO its Etios that should be more worried.

I am keen to book this vehicle but only after a TD, so guess will wait till 11th or longer.
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Old 4th April 2013, 13:27   #194
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U.S still prefers hybrids over diesels. Reason why even the Europeans have introduced hybrids in U.S. And its the no.1 market for Honda (and for most companies).
I fail to see the point of your post. When did I say that the U.S. prefers diesels? What I said was "Even consumers in the U.S. preferred buying cars with more efficient, conventional engines."
Hybrid sales in the U.S. may be rising but they will still only account for 8% of the total by 2020 - that will remain an IC market for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
I have a different take on Honda reliability, honestly haven't seen a single Honda that has been roughed up by taking it to bad roads, Fords and Maruti on the other hand seem to hold up under this abuse much better. Honda is primarily for urban folks, in rural areas damage to the undercarriage can burn a really large whole in your wallet.

Marketing mythology aside, Honda's make pretty realiable mainstream cars, to claim their engines are the cream of the crop is hyperbole. Fiat powertrain are pioneers in diesel, BMW has their legendary I6 petrols. Honda bet on the wrong horse and finally decided to get their act together with a smaller diesel engine. Earth Dreams is just a marketing term and a terrible one at that, this engine's specs are great because its brand new, a year or two max and most others will have matching or better products.
Honda lost its edge in engine tech when they fell behind on small, efficient diesels and petrol direct injection. Earth Dreams (and I know your distaste for the term - I use it only for identification) is an attempt to correct that. I'm curious to see what they come up with, especially in petrol, compared with the TSIs and Ecoboosts. They've also said they expect that line of engines to put them back on top in terms of fuel efficiency rankings by 2015 or some such.
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Old 4th April 2013, 14:16   #195
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

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According to someone earlier in the thread it's been 10 years of diesel engines in the European Accord, that's long enough to be in the latest version of the technology, commonrail and turbo combined. The 4 cylinders are refined, I haven't seen any numbers suggesting they are better, compare the 1.8 TSI with the 1.8 or 2.4 that Honda has done to death here. Honda hasn't bothered beyond VTEC because the marketing ensured recall for ages and it's wearing out now.

The Amaze is up against well established players in slowing market, let's see how it does, Earth Dreaming aside.
Its two generations (or atmost 3) of diesels that they have done compared to half century or more of other manufacturers. Also, since the very first they have created top class diesel engines with the latest technologies (I forget the line of arguments )

For 4 cylinders, I guess you haven't driven the Integras, RSXs, Civic Type Rs, S2000 etc. Or any on Si or Type S models even now.
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