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Old 6th April 2013, 09:40   #256
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Default Re: Honda Amaze : Official Review

@GTO - Awesome review (as always), superb attention to detail.
The fixed neck restraints/head rest for the rear actually looks good and doesn't seem to be a big hindrance to rear visibility (other than what is already caused by the rear shelf positioning). The integrated neck restraints on the front seat reminded me of the ones on the Nano
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Old 6th April 2013, 10:02   #257
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When i test drove the Brio,the only thing i didnt like about its looks is the toyish dashboard and that very thing made into the Amaze :-(. The meatier dash of the swift and dzire siblings are a lot more feel good compared to this.

I dont think dzire has much to worry about if this is priced above it even by a meagre 30-40k,below that well lets wait and watch.
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Old 6th April 2013, 10:40   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambadan View Post
may be I am comparing apple and orange.

Amaze engine (diesel) 1500cc, power 99 BHP @ 3600 rpm, torque 200 @ 1750 rpm, weight 950
Renault Duster (85ps) 1461cc, power 85 BHP @ 3750 rpm, torque 200 @ 1900 rpm, weight 1758
Renault Duster(110ps) 1461cc, power 110 BHP @ 3900 rpm, torque 248 @ 2250 rpm, weight 1781

I found amaze engine much better than duster's. Since i have not test drive amaze, i can not comapre the performance.

I may gain "SUV feel" while driving duster, but may get better power from amaze.
The thing with the amaze's engine is that the power is delivered at the lower end that translates into very good pickup and is a great city commuter. The power to weight ratio of this car is good, What you may have missed out is that the duster makes for a good cruiser as the power is distributed along the torque band and it wouldn't strain it's engine, can't say the same for the amaze as most of the power is at the lower end of the torque band.

The SUV feel you get is a feeling of safety as you drive along the highways without being bullied by rash bus drivers, cabbies and lorry drivers Amaze is all set to amaze the market. Once it's out I'm sure many enthusiasts will start modding the engine to get more performance out of the engine and because its a Honda it'll run without a problem.
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Old 6th April 2013, 12:05   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambadan View Post
may be I am comparing apple and orange.

Amaze engine (diesel) 1500cc, power 99 BHP @ 3600 rpm, torque 200 @ 1750 rpm, weight 950
Renault Duster (85ps) 1461cc, power 85 BHP @ 3750 rpm, torque 200 @ 1900 rpm, weight 1758
Renault Duster(110ps) 1461cc, power 110 BHP @ 3900 rpm, torque 248 @ 2250 rpm, weight 1781

I found amaze engine much better than duster's. Since i have not test drive amaze, i can not comapre the performance.

I may gain "SUV feel" while driving duster, but may get better power from amaze.
Not a fair comparison as both are two different breed cars.
Duster 110 is a superb highway cruiser and has got good outright punch if not good driveability in city.

Talking of numbers Duster 110 touches 100 kmph in 11.88 secs compared to Amaze's 12.47 secs as per ACI. And yes Duster is a significantly heavier car.



I have infact driven the Duster 110 and found the NVH levels even better than Dzire's. Amaze's refinement as per the review is lower than Marutis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post

I'm not sure, if this is correct. I tried to derive the torque per ton for the Duster and Amaze at low and high rpms and this is what I came up with.

These are my conclusions from it.

[*]Amaze Torque/ton varies between 189 Nm/ton @ 1750 rpms and 184 Nm/ton @ 3600 rpms[*]Duster 85 PS Diesel torque varies between 169 Nm/ton @ 1900 and 134.92 Nm/ton @ 3750 rpms which is significantly inferior to the torque distribution of Amaze[*]Duster 110 PS Diesel torque varies between 205.81 Nm/ton @ 2250 rpms & 164 the low .41 Nm/ton @ 3900 rpms. Even with the 110 PS, the advantage is lost with the Duster both on end and high end. It's only in the mid end, that Duster has an advantage over Amaze
It is a interesting comparison but I must add that numbers dont always tell the true story.
For example Hyundai claims i20 crdi has got its peak torque of 220 nm (approx) between 1750-2250 rpm.
But the reality is that the engine truely wakes up post 2100 rpm and then is the real power coming from the engine. Below that it deals with lag inspite of the figures

Last edited by Turbokick : 6th April 2013 at 12:34.
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Old 6th April 2013, 12:07   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Artagnan View Post
The thing with the amaze's engine is that the power is delivered at the lower end that translates into very good pickup and is a great city commuter. The power to weight ratio of this car is good, What you may have missed out is that the duster makes for a good cruiser as the power is distributed along the torque band and it wouldn't strain it's engine, can't say the same for the amaze as most of the power is at the lower end of the torque band.
I'm not sure, if this is correct. I tried to derive the torque per ton for the Duster and Amaze at low and high rpms and this is what I came up with.

Name:  duster_vs_amaze_v2.jpg
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These are my conclusions from it.
  • Amaze Torque/ton varies between 189 Nm/ton @ 1750 rpms and 184 Nm/ton @ 3600 rpms
  • Duster 85 PS Diesel torque varies between 169 Nm/ton @ 1900 and 134.92 Nm/ton @ 3750 rpms which is significantly inferior to the torque distribution of Amaze
  • Duster 110 PS Diesel torque varies between 205.81 Nm/ton @ 2250 rpms & 164.41 Nm/ton @ 3900 rpms. Even with the 110 PS, the advantage is lost with the Duster both on the low end and high end. It's only in the mid end, that Duster has an advantage over Amaze

which implies that even torque distribution is better for the Amaze compared to Duster.
In fact, the torque distribution of > 195 Nm from 1800 all the way upto 3600 rpms is comparable to
the Innova's flat torque curve ( 200 Nm from 1400 rpms all the way till 3600 rpms ).
The best thing is that Honda achieves that torque distribution with an engine that is 700 cc smaller than the Innova.
If you consider the torque/ton instead for comparison with Innova, the torque per ton should be superior to even the Innova on Amaze. ( I'm not 100% sure, because I am not aware of the torque for Amaze at 1400 rpms. But, from what GTO felt about the car's drivability at 1200 rpms, it should be pretty decent )

Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Artagnan View Post
The SUV feel you get is a feeling of safety as you drive along the highways without being bullied by rash bus drivers, cabbies and lorry drivers Amaze is all set to amaze the market.
+1 to this. So, will the ecosport. Saw it in flesh yesterday @ Lulu Mall, Cochin. Impressed. Ecosport should be a sure hit, if priced properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbokick View Post
It is a interesting comparison but I must add that numbers dont always tell the true story.
For example Hyundai claims i20 crdi has got its peak torque of 220 nm (approx) between 1750-2250 rpm.
But the reality is that the engine truely wakes up post 2100 rpm and then is the real power coming from the engine. Below that it deals with lag inspite of the figures
Might be true, but from what GTO has wrote about the car, I think the Amaze's turbo lag should be minimal compared to 110 PS ( for sure ) and 85 PS ( probably ). But, the 85 PS engine's torque per ton is not even comparable to that of the Amaze.
So, from what little information we have, the torque distribution of Amaze seems to be superior to that of the Duster.
Also, 0-100 burst is not an ideal way to measure torque distribution. A well distributed torque curve provides good lugging ability for the engine over the entire rpm range

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 6th April 2013 at 12:57. Reason: merging posts
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Old 6th April 2013, 12:55   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post

Might be true, but from what GTO has wrote about the car, I think the Amaze's turbo lag should be minimal compared to 110 PS ( for sure ) and 85 PS ( probably ). But, the 85 PS engine's torque per ton is not even comparable to that of the Amaze.
So, from what little information we have, the torque distribution of Amaze seems to be superior to that of the Duster.
Also, 0-100 burst is not an ideal way to measure torque distribution. A well distributed torque curve provides good lugging ability for the engine over the entire rpm range
Right. 0-100 will depend more on the gearing and most importantly the horsepower developed in the rpm range. Inspite of Amaze having superior bhp per tonne Duster still manages to be quicker to 100 (if aci numbers are true)

I think sunny vs amaze will be a better comparison. And GTO will just be the right person to answer the real world behaviour of both engines.
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Old 6th April 2013, 13:06   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbokick View Post
Right. 0-100 will depend more on the gearing and most importantly the horsepower developed in the rpm range. Inspite of Amaze having superior bhp per tonne Duster still manages to be quicker to 100 (if aci numbers are true)

I think sunny vs amaze will be a better comparison. And GTO will just be the right person to answer the real world behaviour of both engines.
1) It's just a 3PS/ton advantage that the Amaze has over the 110 PS engine of the Duster. But, the Duster achieves peak PS at 300 rpms higher means the fun lasts for more time. This is what is helping the Duster clock better 0-100 time as per you ( by a meagre 35 seconds )
2) For a normal person, the car is going to spend 99% of its time below 3000 rpms. That's how turbo charged Diesel engines are meant to be driven. Over this rpm range, the Amaze will be peppier than the Duster. So, the 35 seconds advantage in 0-100 burst is not something that will help a person much in the real world practical driving scenarios.
3) There is no comparison with the Sunny Diesel. Amaze should blow away the Sunny Diesel as far as performance is concerned ( in drivability, torque distribution, and outright power ). Again I need to validate this by trying out the vehicle. For now, it is based on the specs and team-bhp reviews. Since GTO owns a Sunny Diesel, he should be the best person to comment on this.

Last edited by amalji : 6th April 2013 at 13:16.
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Old 6th April 2013, 13:14   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post

These are my conclusions from it.
[*]Amaze Torque/ton varies between 189 Nm/ton @ 1750 rpms and 184 Nm/ton @ 3600 rpms[*]Duster 85 PS Diesel torque varies between 169 Nm/ton @ 1900 and 134.92 Nm/ton @ 3750 rpms which is significantly inferior to the torque distribution of Amaze[*]Duster 110 PS Diesel torque varies between 205.81 Nm/ton @ 2250 rpms & 164.41 Nm/ton @ 3900 rpms. Even with the 110 PS, the advantage is lost with the Duster both on the low end and high end. It's only in the mid end, that Duster has an advantage over Amaze

which implies that even torque distribution is better for the Amaze compared to Duster.
In fact, the torque distribution of > 195 Nm from 1800 all the way upto 3600 rpms is comparable to
the Innova's flat torque curve ( 200 Nm from 1400 rpms all the way till 3600 rpms ).
The best thing is that Honda achieves that torque distribution with an engine that is 700 cc smaller than the Innova.
If you consider the torque/ton instead for comparison with Innova, the torque per ton should be superior to even the Innova on Amaze. ( I'm not 100% sure, because I am not aware of the torque for Amaze at 1400 rpms. But, from what GTO felt about the car's drivability at 1200 rpms, it should be pretty decent )

+1 to this. So, will the ecosport. Saw it in flesh yesterday @ Lulu Mall, Cochin. Impressed. Ecosport should be a sure hit, if priced properly.
+1 I agree with your calculations. It's amazing what Honda has produced with their engines and I'm thankful to the Indian govt that they do not tax the car according to its power to weight ratio. I own an innova and love its highway cruising abilities it just gobbles the distance in one lump if amaze will be similar to an innova then it'll be a wonderful car to drive especially in ghat sections. I'm worried about the traction, a good power to weight ratio is good to drive around but if there is low traction(given its low kerb weight) sudden braking might be dangerous it could lead to a nose diving situation or it could take more distance to stop. Experts please comment on this.

Eco sport, amaze with punto refresh around the corner, the Indian car market just got hotter



Japanese have always been good at tuning their engines, best example Mitsubishi evo it can easily stand up to most of the super cars.
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Old 6th April 2013, 13:26   #264
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@GTO Great review as always. Thanks. Pre-booked the diesel Amaze with Capital Honda, Meenambakkam Chennai for Rs.10,000. TD vehicle is expected from the 11th. They were not ready to show me the car from their yard , as per "instrucrions". Disappointing. Already 130+ bookings with this dealer. Post the TD ,will make the final call.

Thanks,
Thiaga
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Old 6th April 2013, 13:42   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thiagust View Post
@GTO Great review as always. Thanks. Pre-booked the diesel Amaze with Capital Honda, Meenambakkam Chennai for Rs.10,000. TD vehicle is expected from the 11th. They were not ready to show me the car from their yard , as per "instrucrions". Disappointing. Already 130+ bookings with this dealer. Post the TD ,will make the final call.

Thanks,
Thiaga
Wow, we might have another Amaze owner. Cool.
Do post your findings after the TD. I'm also waiting eagerly for a chance to TD it.
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Old 6th April 2013, 13:53   #266
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Like the way you snuck Fiat into a hot conversation my friend. I'm sure people are eager for the next gen Punto, since it's a runaway hit.

We are planning a purchase. The Amaze looks perfect for my family. Large boot, can easily seat 5, fuel efficient etc. The dash is a damper. But I'd still like to see its on-road performance till I decide.

Fords aren't known for long lasting engines in the outside markets, so I'll give Eco Sport the pass :-)



Eco sport, amaze with punto refresh around the corner, the Indian car market just got hotter



Japanese have always been good at tuning their engines, best example Mitsubishi evo it can easily stand up to most of the super cars.[/quote]
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Old 6th April 2013, 21:51   #267
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Originally Posted by Sebring View Post
Like the way you snuck Fiat into a hot conversation my friend. I'm sure people are eager for the next gen Punto, since it's a runaway hit.

We are planning a purchase. The Amaze looks perfect for my family. Large boot, can easily seat 5, fuel efficient etc. The dash is a damper. But I'd still like to see its on-road performance till I decide.

Fords aren't known for long lasting engines in the outside markets, so I'll give Eco Sport the pass :-)

Eco sport, amaze with punto refresh around the corner, the Indian car market just got hotter

Japanese have always been good at tuning their engines, best example Mitsubishi evo it can easily stand up to most of the super cars.
[/quote]

It had to come to it, with the upcoming line up of cars fiat and the other manufacturers are set to spoil us with choices! I'm sure the amaze won't disappoint you in any way save for the dash board which is more practical than having an aesthetic value.
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Old 6th April 2013, 23:21   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalji View Post
In fact, the torque distribution of > 195 Nm from 1800 all the way upto 3600 rpms is comparable to
the Innova's flat torque curve ( 200 Nm from 1400 rpms all the way till 3600 rpms ).
The best thing is that Honda achieves that torque distribution with an engine that is 700 cc smaller than the Innova.
If you consider the torque/ton instead for comparison with Innova, the torque per ton should be superior to even the Innova on Amaze.
Small correction: Innova has the 2.5l (2494cc) D4D which is 996cc more than Amaze 1.5l iDTEC (i.e. ~40% less capacity).

As per specs,
Car...............................Innova.........Q uanto............Duster...........Amaze........... Manza
Max Power (Ps@rpm)....100 @ 3600....100 @ 3750....110 @ 3900....100 @ 3600......88 @ 4000
Max Torque (Nm@rpm)..200 @ 1400....240 @ 1600....248 @ 2250....200 @ 1750....200 @ 1750
Kerb Weight (kg)..............1660............1640............ ..1235.............1060.............1200

The AMAZing thing about the Honda here is that 80% of that 200Nm Torque (i.e. 160Nm) is available right from 1250 RPM. Thats what gives it the drivability that GTO was talking about.

I can only hope that this engine finds its way to the other cars in the Honda India Lineup. Given the current scenarios with MUVs in India, this kind of power is just about enough (after all its same as Innova and more than Evalia and Ertiga.), but I hope they reserve the VGT version for the upcoming MUV/MPV.
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Old 7th April 2013, 01:26   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Artagnan View Post
I'm worried about the traction, a good power to weight ratio is good to drive around but if there is low traction(given its low kerb weight) sudden braking might be dangerous it could lead to a nose diving situation or it could take more distance to stop. Experts please comment on this.
You are right the traction will be less, but that will not not affect braking. Since the mass is low, the amount of force required to brake is also low. In the end you will find that lower the weight, better is the braking.


Guys, any info about the Brio 1.5Diesel?

Last edited by oxyzen : 7th April 2013 at 01:29.
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Old 7th April 2013, 13:22   #270
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Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post

You are right the traction will be less, but that will not not affect braking. Since the mass is low, the amount of force required to brake is also low. In the end you will find that lower the weight, better is the braking.

Guys, any info about the Brio 1.5Diesel?
Based on my discussion with the Honda sales rep, diesel brio could be later this year or early next year.

Also any idea on the mileage for the Amaze AT. Even though I have booked the Diesel variant , given the fact that my primary need is the office commute of around 50 odd kms daily and the high noise levels of the Diesel Amaze, might end up choosing the AT.
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